What be this tree??
- Thread starter kodiak
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A few more pictures...
H
H
I'd say the confidence level is now higher. Zoom in on your leaf pic compared to the ones Kodiak posted.
Well, svk,
The Euro Hornbeam is definitely doubly toothed... from what I'm seeing in kodiak's pictures, the leaves are, for the most part, singly toothed.
On the Hornbeam, I'm seeing a prominent light colored bud where the leaf stem attaches to the twig... it's missing on kodiak's tree.
Also, the leaf stem appears to be longer on the Hornbeam... at least twice as long as kodiak's example.
And, the twigs in kodiak's pictures look to be a bit heavier and slightly darker.
The Euro Hornbeam "should" have leaves approaching 4 inches long... using kodiak's hand as a gauge, all of his leaves seem to be less than 3 inches.
Then there's that darn multicolored bark.
So in the final analysis... and I'm gonna' back-peddle a little... it is an elm... It's a Chinese Elm (and I'm fairly confident in that).
Although, let us not forget... I once identified a smallsapling seedling as an ash, but when the OP pulled it from the ground there was a walnut attached to the roots 
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The Euro Hornbeam is definitely doubly toothed... from what I'm seeing in kodiak's pictures, the leaves are, for the most part, singly toothed.
On the Hornbeam, I'm seeing a prominent light colored bud where the leaf stem attaches to the twig... it's missing on kodiak's tree.
Also, the leaf stem appears to be longer on the Hornbeam... at least twice as long as kodiak's example.
And, the twigs in kodiak's pictures look to be a bit heavier and slightly darker.
The Euro Hornbeam "should" have leaves approaching 4 inches long... using kodiak's hand as a gauge, all of his leaves seem to be less than 3 inches.
Then there's that darn multicolored bark.
So in the final analysis... and I'm gonna' back-peddle a little... it is an elm... It's a Chinese Elm (and I'm fairly confident in that).
Although, let us not forget... I once identified a small
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haveawoody
Addicted to ArboristSite
The leaf is a real ringer for rock elm but that bark is like nothing I've ever seen.
Newest picture of the bark is very odd and much easier to see.
I'm wondering if the tree has White Canker making the bark look that odd.?
A close look at the leafs show they are suffering from something making them blotchy in color and each leaf has small black dots all over.
Newest picture of the bark is very odd and much easier to see.
I'm wondering if the tree has White Canker making the bark look that odd.?
A close look at the leafs show they are suffering from something making them blotchy in color and each leaf has small black dots all over.
No, they are not...
Rock Elm, like it's cousins the American and Slippery Elm, has a doubly tooth leaf with an exaggerated uneven base... heck, even the color and size are no where close to Rock Elm.
And the bark on limbs and branches has no evidence of the Rock Elm's corky ridges and wings... it's nothing even in the same ballpark with Rock Elm.
haveawoody,
Are you absolutely sure what you call "Rock Elm" is in fact ulmus thomasii ??
OH, and the bark of Chinese Elm is made-up of layers of black, browns, reds, yellows and oranges... as the outer layers flake off it gets a multicolored look... giving it the nickname Lacebark Elm. There ain't no "White Canker"... that's just the natural color variation.
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Well fellas, I do appreciate the speculation on this one. I guess I'll keep an eye on it to see what the seeds look like as the clue.
Thanks all!
Thanks all!
haveawoody
Addicted to ArboristSite
Whitespider,
This is the format of rock elm we have in Ontario Canada.
Rare to see all the odd bark growth typical to rock elm here, other than the occasional almost canker looking thing on young trees stems.
Small rock elm bark here looks like someone stitched cuts up so easy to ID but as the tree gets older they tend to disappear into the bark and the diamond shape of the ridges remains.
Southern Ontario is getting to the edge of Rock elm habitat so probably why ours looks a little different.
100 miles north of me Rock elm is rare to see in the forest.
With the waves of DED that have decimated elm here it's getting rare to see living mature elm anything.
This is the format of rock elm we have in Ontario Canada.
Rare to see all the odd bark growth typical to rock elm here, other than the occasional almost canker looking thing on young trees stems.
Small rock elm bark here looks like someone stitched cuts up so easy to ID but as the tree gets older they tend to disappear into the bark and the diamond shape of the ridges remains.
Southern Ontario is getting to the edge of Rock elm habitat so probably why ours looks a little different.
100 miles north of me Rock elm is rare to see in the forest.
With the waves of DED that have decimated elm here it's getting rare to see living mature elm anything.
haveawoody
Addicted to ArboristSite
@haveawoody ,
That bark is no different than the Rock Elm we have here.
As to your picture of the leaves...
Your picture shows early season, immature leaves, quite evident by the green twig, lack of prominent buds, and the perfect bright green condition of the leaves. Even so, the "doubly tooth" margin is still there, easily seen... and the leaves on kodiak's tree are singly toothed. This late in the season the Rock Elm's leaves and twigs will look nothing like your picture... even where you live. The twig will have developed protective bark... the largish, prominent, pointed buds will be fully developed... and the leaves will have matured, dulled and developed the uneven base. It's about the detail man... pay attention to detail.
No matter how many times I look at any of the pictures from kodiak... I flat cannot see anything that looks like Rock Elm (and the singly toothed leaf flat eliminates the Rock Elm as a possibility... it's the small details man, the details).
EARLY SEASON, IMMATURE LEAVES (but still doubly toothed... no buds)
LATE SEASON LEAVES (notice the uneven bases, the darkened twig, and developed buds)
The buds of a Rock Elm are the largest, and most pointed of the common elms.. they even feel sharp to the touch.
That bark is no different than the Rock Elm we have here.
As to your picture of the leaves...
Your picture shows early season, immature leaves, quite evident by the green twig, lack of prominent buds, and the perfect bright green condition of the leaves. Even so, the "doubly tooth" margin is still there, easily seen... and the leaves on kodiak's tree are singly toothed. This late in the season the Rock Elm's leaves and twigs will look nothing like your picture... even where you live. The twig will have developed protective bark... the largish, prominent, pointed buds will be fully developed... and the leaves will have matured, dulled and developed the uneven base. It's about the detail man... pay attention to detail.
No matter how many times I look at any of the pictures from kodiak... I flat cannot see anything that looks like Rock Elm (and the singly toothed leaf flat eliminates the Rock Elm as a possibility... it's the small details man, the details).
EARLY SEASON, IMMATURE LEAVES (but still doubly toothed... no buds)
LATE SEASON LEAVES (notice the uneven bases, the darkened twig, and developed buds)
The buds of a Rock Elm are the largest, and most pointed of the common elms.. they even feel sharp to the touch.
You are very welcome.
Leopold knows his stuff and his books are friggin' awesome. The YouTube vids are great for quick reference, they cover the basics, but don't get into a lot of small detail.
It's too bad (for me anyway) that his "expertise" (at least as I understand it) is mostly about trees and plants in the eastern portion of North American (including most imports)... but still, a huge part of that carries over to where I live. I have one of his books/field guides (somewhere), it (and my Grandfather) taught me to look for small detail when attempting to identify various species within the same genus (such as the elms), or attempting to identify a total unknown.
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haveawoody
Addicted to ArboristSite
Whitespider,
I think your the first person to say that rock elm in your area looks like mine.
Most people tell me it's a tree covered in what is best described as canker bark LOL
All about location I guess for a few different species.
Mulberry and Black locust for us are two others that look quite different north and south NA.
Yeppers your right on the double tooth leaf on rock elm.
For me the originals are just out of clarity to pin them down, some places they look double tooth and other sections not at all.
Think we are in the same boat though of trying to make what we know fit.
But that bark who knows what that is.
I think your the first person to say that rock elm in your area looks like mine.
Most people tell me it's a tree covered in what is best described as canker bark LOL
All about location I guess for a few different species.
Mulberry and Black locust for us are two others that look quite different north and south NA.
Yeppers your right on the double tooth leaf on rock elm.
For me the originals are just out of clarity to pin them down, some places they look double tooth and other sections not at all.
Think we are in the same boat though of trying to make what we know fit.
But that bark who knows what that is.
stihly dan
Addicted to ArboristSite
@haveawoody ,
That bark is no different than the Rock Elm we have here.
As to your picture of the leaves...
Your picture shows early season, immature leaves, quite evident by the green twig, lack of prominent buds, and the perfect bright green condition of the leaves. Even so, the "doubly tooth" margin is still there, easily seen... and the leaves on kodiak's tree are singly toothed. This late in the season the Rock Elm's leaves and twigs will look nothing like your picture... even where you live. The twig will have developed protective bark... the largish, prominent, pointed buds will be fully developed... and the leaves will have matured, dulled and developed the uneven base. It's about the detail man... pay attention to detail.
No matter how many times I look at any of the pictures from kodiak... I flat cannot see anything that looks like Rock Elm (and the singly toothed leaf flat eliminates the Rock Elm as a possibility... it's the small details man, the details).
EARLY SEASON, IMMATURE LEAVES (but still doubly toothed... no buds)
LATE SEASON LEAVES (notice the uneven bases, the darkened twig, and developed buds)
The buds of a Rock Elm are the largest, and most pointed of the common elms.. they even feel sharp to the touch.
The American looks just like the Rock to me.
haveawoody
Addicted to ArboristSite
Whitespider,
Chinese Elm is another odd bark but sure looks different than the picture.
I scoured NA species to try and find a bark like the one in the picture but no luck.
Me thinks it's some non native tree.
Chinese Elm is another odd bark but sure looks different than the picture.
I scoured NA species to try and find a bark like the one in the picture but no luck.
Me thinks it's some non native tree.
haveawoody
Addicted to ArboristSite
stihly dan,
Up close and personal 3 things that give away the id of Rock are canker bark on young stems.
In my area it's pretty limited in the young wood but a look at a few young branches and you always see some.
Stitch marks on young main stem bark, as the bark gets older they become pronounced deep diamond shapes and the stitch is almost absorbed.
And the one I use when unsure of the first two is underside of rock elm leaf has a hairy texture, I believe only elm that has that trait.
Lots of elms look similar in bark and leaf, just a few small differences in leaf and bark to make the ID easier.
IMO elm is one of the most difficult to ID correctly without good quality pictures to look at.
Lucky for me only American and Rock grow here so id is one or the other LOL
Up close and personal 3 things that give away the id of Rock are canker bark on young stems.
In my area it's pretty limited in the young wood but a look at a few young branches and you always see some.
Stitch marks on young main stem bark, as the bark gets older they become pronounced deep diamond shapes and the stitch is almost absorbed.
And the one I use when unsure of the first two is underside of rock elm leaf has a hairy texture, I believe only elm that has that trait.
Lots of elms look similar in bark and leaf, just a few small differences in leaf and bark to make the ID easier.
IMO elm is one of the most difficult to ID correctly without good quality pictures to look at.
Lucky for me only American and Rock grow here so id is one or the other LOL
The original pictures remind me of the elms we used to clean out of fence rows growing up in northwestern Illinois, but I'm not sure of species. I think we had red or white elms back then. Fences are gone and I haven't lived there for 20 + years. We have something different down here in Georgia. I am not at all familiar with rock elm, but the leaves look quite large in the video with Don Leopold. I don't remember ours having leaves that big. Good luck with the ID
Just gonna' guess based on the limited clues you provide...
- Original pics reminiscent
- Fence Rows
- NW Illinois
- Leaves smaller than Rock Elm
Slippery (Red) Elm has larger leaves (on average) than American Elm... American Elm has larger leaves (on average) than Rock Elm... And Siberian Elm has leaves (hands down) smaller than any elm native to the northern United States (probably anywhere in the US).
Siberian Elm is a pioneer species (in the US), it pops-up like weeds in fence rows, pastures, RR right-of-ways, ditches, and edges... many states list it as an invasive species.
I spend quite a bit of time in NW Illinois (for work and visiting friends), Siberian Elm is everywhere ya' look... big ones, well over 20 years age.
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