Ceramic Bearings?????

sILlogger · Mar 30, 2007

I was just reading a post and come across "ceramic bearings" u suppose this is some part of a saw mod, what do these add to the saw?? longevity??? im soon to have an 066 woods ported and was curious as to what ceramic bearing bring to the fight, once again thanks!!

computeruser · Mar 30, 2007

They add a lot of cost, I know that much. Less friction would be their biggest advantage, I'd suspect.

Lakeside53 · Mar 30, 2007

Lower friction. Unless you're racing... and into splitting hairs, I wouldn't bother...

rickyrooster · Mar 30, 2007

dean at washington hot saws, claims there worth 5% to 7% more horsepower just by adding these bearings. he is also a member of AS.

bwalker · Mar 30, 2007

I would like to see the proof of a 5-7% increase in HP.

livewire · Mar 30, 2007

bwalker said:
I would like to see the proof of a 5-7% increase in HP.

and cost!!! What do they run?

Lakeside53 · Mar 30, 2007

I also would like to see the proof of 5-7%... just the bearings?

Here's one suppliers info on what we are talking about. HYBRID ceramic bearings - Stainless bearing with Si3N4 balls. You can buy your own balls and do you own if you have a few tools... but for one or two saws it would be hard to get anyones attenmtion on the supply side...

The graphs "look" impressive, but pay attention to the SCALES... and remember the application - saws, not turbines, or gyros, or..

From : http://www.bearingworks.com/fnb.htm

Tree Sling'r · Mar 30, 2007

Heres what sold me

I was not sure what they would improve in performance - but installed in a 460 I built - it performed better than any other mod I have done - they are the same.

This is true no BS: Took the bearings out of the case - put one on my index finger, spun it - it took 2 full turns. Put ceramics in the other bearing, spun it while on the same finger (technical) it spun nearly five times. Did it again and again just to prove it was no fluke. I marked each race with a Sharpie to get somewhat of a real reading. Did it again and again - same result each time.

Bag on them all you want - but until you have used them or seen the difference first hand I don't think this should turn into a VS. thread.

Just my perspective, take it for what its worth.

livewire · Mar 30, 2007

I'm not bashing at all.

I just want to know what the ballpark cost is for the upgrade. It may or may not be worth an investment in my opinion.

Tree Sling'r · Mar 30, 2007

livewire said:
I'm not bashing at all.

I just want to know what the ballpark cost is for the upgrade. It may or may not be worth an investment in my opinion.

I know you weren't.
As far as cost - not sure - I did some swapping with Dean. We seem to do that a lot. Get a hold of Dean, he could be more informative that I can.

Lakeside53 · Mar 30, 2007

I don't want to speak for Dean but I believe he said $200/set in a recent post... I'm sure he''ll correct me if I'm wrong

Edit - here is is.. http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?p=602635#post602635

livewire · Mar 30, 2007

Wow....

I was close! was only off by 1 zero.

Now all I have to do is run a saw with 'em!

Lakeside53 · Mar 31, 2007

There a heck of a lot more to do with a work saw before I'd get into the bearings...

klickitatsacket · Mar 31, 2007

first of the bearings the Lakside shows are ceramic hybrids, not full ceramics. Ceramic hybrids are for low speed applications only. Hybrids coat steal with a ceramic coating. the problem with them are that the steel expands at a higher and faster rate than the ceramic and cracks the coating.

A full ceramic siliconNitride ball is 30% less dense than steel and only requires 1/10 the lubrication. These balls are rated for up to 32,000 RPM (not that any saw will go that fast) Manufacturer claims 8-10 % in HP gains however our tests show that cut times run about 5-7% faster with the only changes being the bearings. One of the biggest things you will notice is that throttle response is extremely improved.

The cost for bearings is $5 per ball plus $30 per set for labor. this is for phenolic cages only. Any bearing with steel cages and rivets is based on $50 per hour shop rate. IF you want us to purchase your bearings for you we can and send you a set rebuilt, or you can send us your set and we will rebuild those. I highly recomend NEW bearings and at the worst no more than 1 or 2 tanks of fuel through your saw.

IF you have any questions please feel free to give us a call.

RiverRat2 · Mar 31, 2007

WE know Mule!!!!

Marketing stategy??????? oh sorry I got you and bwalker mixed up!!!:monkey:

RiverRat2 · Mar 31, 2007

rickyrooster said:
dean at washington hot saws, claims there worth 5% to 7% more horsepower just by adding these bearings. he is also a member of AS.

He said 5-7% improvement in cut times,,,,,Not HP!!!! :blob2:

Lakeside53 · Mar 31, 2007

Dean.. the bearing I gave the info on have soild ceramic balls... The true ceramic bearings have the inner and outer races also constructed of ceramic.. not what we are talking about here. What you put togther are known as hybrid bearings.

I know the advantages of ceramic and looked closely at this application a couple of years ago. Maybe I don't have all the facts but couldn't see the real advantage for a work saw. Taking out one ring for example would reduce friction far more than the bearings.

Can you show us the actual manufacturers claim of the HP increase? Why does it "increase the HP"? If it just frictional, then that means the HP gained is being lost in the steel bearings. If you gain say 0.3hp, in a perfect world that's 228 watts of energy being lost as heat IN the steel bearing... I'm having trouble reconciling that ... Help us out...

For those of you interested:

Here's another link - shows true ceramic bearings - not cheap..
http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/CTGY/FullCeramicBearings

This is link to the top page - you can get to hybrids and loose balls (not the sizes you need for the Metric bearings, but they are all similar).
http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/CTGY/CeramicBallBearings

bwalker · Mar 31, 2007

Nothing new as ceramic bearings have been used for years. I knew a guy who sold them for use in Honda powdered two stroke shifter carts/ They worked OK, but he never realized any significant power gains that could be documented repeatedly on a ultra accurate dyno.
I dont think a ultra accurate dyno exists for saws yet. As such its nearly impossible to reconcile claims made. $200 is way steep for a set of bearings that may or may not do anything better.
FWIW I also seem to remember ceramic bearings not tolerating debris very well.

bwalker · Mar 31, 2007

BTW this is the guy I was talking about.
http://www.rceracing.com/lowfriccerbe.html

chowdozer · Mar 31, 2007

bwalker said:
BTW this is the guy I was talking about.
http://www.rceracing.com/lowfriccerbe.html

In your previous post you wrote

bwalker said:
but he never realized any significant power gains that could be documented repeatedly on a ultra accurate dyno

but he writes in his website

Our testing shows 1/2 to 5/8 HP improvement.

Something doesn't add up.

What if you could get a 1/2 hp on a chainsaw?

Ceramic Bearings?????

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