Foot slingshot used to set traverse - Page 3

tarzanstree · 10-01-2009, 11:08 AM

Awesome!

Tree Machine · 10-10-2009, 07:30 AM

Well done, Moss! Doing the traverse is one thing. Doing the traverse and getting it all on video is quite another. Many thanks for that effort and for bringing it to us. Also, the foot slingshot, that's an original.

Bringing the slingshot back using the grapnel, I have to thank you for bringing us a unique method. Very ingenious.

I've been a long-time fan of your photography, only recently have I seen your illustration work. A man of many talents.

You are one cool cat.

moss · 10-12-2009, 09:23 AM

Thanks for the comments TM.

FYI: I didn't invent the grapnel horizontal retrieve technique, folks on the Tree Climber's Coalition forum have been working through various similar ideas, mine is one more refinement of the technique and is very close to what's called the "J~bird Dangle".
-moss

Tree Machine · 10-12-2009, 09:37 AM

Sounds like a funky blues tune in the making.

Well then let me refine the compliment.

I appreciate your refinements.

Tree Machine · 10-12-2009, 10:17 AM

Refinements on a fledgeling practice in the technique of DISTANT TREE-TO-TREE TRAVERSES.

This, as you say, Moss, has been going on for some time, variants of it, usually double-rope, DRT that is, TWO ropes. Set rope, cross over retrieve rope behind you, (or not) and continue on.

You do it entirely without a second rope, just a second shotline and that Jangle Bird Grapnel, this sort of traverse becomes an entirely different animal.

In Arboriculture, the traverses are often within the same canopy of a tree, like big oaks where you've gotta climb into 7 different sections of a huge canopy so you set your rope from one section to another (reset) then belay off the tail and ascend up the reset line. This is using one line, not necessarily single rope technique. Sometimes you belay out and ascend up in tight fashion, across, and stay high in the traverse, or just sloop down a ways and come back up. Good treemen who can do this stuff, do it and make a lot of dough, so it really benefits us to be the technicians they're paying us to be. Fun stuff.

But YOU, sir, have shown us how to do-tree-to-distant tree traverses. That rocks.

The only way I was seeing this done was fire the bag over desired target, let bag drop to the ground afar. Ground guy takes off the shotbag, clips on rope, climber retrieves single line, ground guy anchors the rope below, climber tensions applies ascension method and belays off his climbing line.

If you can control friction, modulating the friction device, using your feet, then you can put all your attention to the effort of the traverse out in front of you, which usually has a slope upward, as well as across.

But that's SRT out front, but the second rope letting you out is still a second rope in the system.

You,

are showing it

One

Single rope.
One lifeline, doing it all. At 50 some foot of span and without a second person helping. This one is a rare breed, this specific method.

You can be modest if you want, but without the foot slingshot, distances horizontal like that are just hardly possible. This is very unique and original.

I think that because of what is possible with this new piece of gear, + the refined method, this is uniquely outside the realm of anything we currently do in professional tree climbing.

And in the world of recreational tree climbing I would hope they recognize, although themselves maybe having done this method to whatever degree, that the bar in having done this has been raised to a new standard. Good job, Moss.

moss · 10-13-2009, 11:21 AM

Thanks TM, can I use your comments in my resume? :-)

Seriously though, as a rec climber I recognize that I'll never be the climber that a daily work climber is. Fortunately I have the opportunity and inclination to work on new techniques and ideas, if pro climbers find any of it useful, all the better!
-moss

TreeWürx · 11-03-2009, 10:00 PM

Incredible video. I hope you can make a good proto type and maybe sell the patent. That would make you more money for more toys. Every time I think I have come up with a new innovation, I look in a catalog and find out some else already made it.

moss · 11-06-2009, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TreeWürx

Incredible video. I hope you can make a good proto type and maybe sell the patent. That would make you more money for more toys. Every time I think I have come up with a new innovation, I look in a catalog and find out some else already made it.

Thanks TreeWürx. I think that the potential market is too small to make it worth spending 3 grand to get a patent (if I had it to spend). I favor "open source" inventing: make stuff, get it out there so it can be useful and improved. I established "prior art" by publicizing it and documenting use, don't think anyone else could patent it. Patent law is all about who can spend the most money on a legal team, IMHO. Anyone is free to copy the Footshot and hopefully come up with improvements. But... if anyone patents the design and tries to prevent me from selling them at some future date there would be a huge fight.
-moss

lostcoastland · 11-07-2009, 10:29 PM

I feel your props towwards daily climbers. I 'm starting into a few weeks of incessant climbign and trimming acress of tree's; deadwooding. After 3 weeeks of traditiona; climb to anchor point. rappel to base of nearby tree and climb it. I bought a new Sliky Yamabico and a Longboy polesaw in my efforts to reduce my labors. Other time savers will be rigging nearby clumps of trees with my throwline and srt'ing with spikes to trim hearty redwood tree's... crown lifts 80' plus( Which they handle Fine). I like the Grappel and will no doubt craft one out of metal soon...or have my blacksmith freind do...

cookiecutter · 11-09-2009, 08:02 PM

This is one of the videos that got me excited about tree climbing. Up till now I'd only heard of it from an arborist on campus. Doing a quick google search brought me here, and to this video. I can't wait to get started! I come from a climbing/canyoneering type background and this tree climbing is something I can do right in my backyard so to speak. Very awesome! So thanks for the video, very inspirational!

moss · 11-11-2009, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cookiecutter

This is one of the videos that got me excited about tree climbing. Up till now I'd only heard of it from an arborist on campus. Doing a quick google search brought me here, and to this video. I can't wait to get started! I come from a climbing/canyoneering type background and this tree climbing is something I can do right in my backyard so to speak. Very awesome! So thanks for the video, very inspirational!

Good stuff. If you haven't yet, pick up Jepson's Tree Climber's Companion. Also Bill Maher's "Getting Rigged" is an excellent DRT climbing reference from a well respected teacher in the rec tree climbing community:
Getting Rigged

Best thing is to find an experienced climber to get up into a tree with if possible.
-moss

cookiecutter · 11-12-2009, 02:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moss

Good stuff. If you haven't yet, pick up Jepson's Tree Climber's Companion. Also Bill Maher's "Getting Rigged" is an excellent DRT climbing reference from a well respected teacher in the rec tree climbing community:
Getting Rigged

Best thing is to find an experienced climber to get up into a tree with if possible.
-moss

Awesome, I appreciate the help. I have always used SRT in my past activities because I can set up a contingency anchor and set rope length while rappelling. I have honestly never seen the style of DRT with a blake's hitch, but it seems very simplistic. I will take your advice and pick up those references, as well as search for an experienced climber.

Again, much appreciated.

-cutter

moss · 11-12-2009, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cookiecutter

I have honestly never seen the style of DRT with a blake's hitch, but it seems very simplistic...

99% of technical tree climbers use friction hitch technique (Blake's is one of many possible friction hitch configurations) on a doubled rope to get around in the crown of a tree. The primary benefit is that you can switch from ascent to descent mode instantly and back again with no configuration change. Experienced climbers have their hitch systems tuned to be very responsive and safe. Many climbers use SRT to get up into taller trees because of the efficiency for long ascents into the crown (over 50-60 feet for example). Some are climbing 100% SRT using devices like the Unicender to allow the same up and down mobility that hitch systems provide. Other climbers hang DRT rigs off of fixed SRT systems. Tree climbers are extremely creative, there are as many variations on all of these systems as there are climbers.

But... before delving into all of that it's smart to understand through many hours of experience the basics of friction hitch climbing, it is the basis of all the technique.
-moss

Tree Machine · 11-12-2009, 07:05 PM

I'm of that other 1% . Having come from a friction hitch beginning, the inefficiency of 2:1 ascent with all the extra required physical motion and friction losses within the system and the inordinate amount of slack tending, I just had to look to other aerial disciplines. No one in the world uses 2:1 friction hitch methods except treeguys, and its a tradition from the manila rope age, passed from generation to generation before good hardware existed.

To be honest, I like tradition and I hope the friction hitch lives on. Currently, technical climbers incorporate ascenders or other rope grabs, pulleys, expensive and consumable high-tech eye-eye spliced tress cords, additional connectors, dog leashes, foot-mounted ascenders and friction saving devices at the tie-in point all to make this rather difficult system more tolerable.

Being able to go instantly from ascent to descent may be viewed as the primary or only advantage of 2:1, but if it only takes 5-7 seconds to change over from ascent to descent, using ascenders and a friction piece, I'll pay that price and take all the advantages that 1:1 doubled or single rope technique have to offer.

Watching guys hoist men up into trees with skid loaders, or ground men pulling tail in assistance, or dudes looking to multi-thousand dollar powered ascender systems just to overcome the inherent difficulty of friction hitch ascent just makes me shake my head.

On the descent, friction hitch methods are not too bad, as long as the doubled line above you doesn't rub across a limb or around a stem, and as long as you don't use redirects on your rope or drop down through a limb's natural fork to the limb below. I personally can't deal with the limitations imposed, the inefficiency and the extra effort required to use the friction hitch system.

But I do think the system is cool and applaud the innovators of past who came up with it. Up and down with nothing but a rope. I admire it deeply and find it next to useless, having the option of modern simple and economic devices.

Still, I say, long live the friction hitch.

chewbacca · 11-18-2009, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cookiecutter

Awesome, I appreciate the help. I have always used SRT in my past activities because I can set up a contingency anchor and set rope length while rappelling. I have honestly never seen the style of DRT with a blake's hitch, but it seems very simplistic. I will take your advice and pick up those references, as well as search for an experienced climber.

Again, much appreciated.

-cutter

Hey, I dunno where you are in Idaho, but if you're anywhere near Coeur d'Alene and you wanna go climbing, let me know.

10-01-2009, 11:08 AM	#31
tarzanstree Arboristsite MVP Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Western Montana Posts: 581	Awesome! __________________ Tough times never last, but tough people do. Cody

10-12-2009, 09:37 AM	#34
Tree Machine Arboristsite MVP Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 4,089	Sounds like a funky blues tune in the making. Well then let me refine the compliment. I appreciate your refinements. __________________ -TM-

10-12-2009, 10:17 AM	#35
Tree Machine Arboristsite MVP Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 4,089	Refinements on a fledgeling practice in the technique of DISTANT TREE-TO-TREE TRAVERSES. This, as you say, Moss, has been going on for some time, variants of it, usually double-rope, DRT that is, TWO ropes. Set rope, cross over retrieve rope behind you, (or not) and continue on. You do it entirely without a second rope, just a second shotline and that Jangle Bird Grapnel, this sort of traverse becomes an entirely different animal. In Arboriculture, the traverses are often within the same canopy of a tree, like big oaks where you've gotta climb into 7 different sections of a huge canopy so you set your rope from one section to another (reset) then belay off the tail and ascend up the reset line. This is using one line, not necessarily single rope technique. Sometimes you belay out and ascend up in tight fashion, across, and stay high in the traverse, or just sloop down a ways and come back up. Good treemen who can do this stuff, do it and make a lot of dough, so it really benefits us to be the technicians they're paying us to be. Fun stuff. But YOU, sir, have shown us how to do-tree-to-distant tree traverses. That rocks. The only way I was seeing this done was fire the bag over desired target, let bag drop to the ground afar. Ground guy takes off the shotbag, clips on rope, climber retrieves single line, ground guy anchors the rope below, climber tensions applies ascension method and belays off his climbing line. If you can control friction, modulating the friction device, using your feet, then you can put all your attention to the effort of the traverse out in front of you, which usually has a slope upward, as well as across. But that's SRT out front, but the second rope letting you out is still a second rope in the system. You, are showing it One Single rope. One lifeline, doing it all. At 50 some foot of span and without a second person helping. This one is a rare breed, this specific method. You can be modest if you want, but without the foot slingshot, distances horizontal like that are just hardly possible. This is very unique and original. I think that because of what is possible with this new piece of gear, + the refined method, this is uniquely outside the realm of anything we currently do in professional tree climbing. And in the world of recreational tree climbing I would hope they recognize, although themselves maybe having done this method to whatever degree, that the bar in having done this has been raised to a new standard. Good job, Moss. __________________ -TM- Last edited by Tree Machine; 10-12-2009 at 10:28 AM.

11-03-2009, 10:00 PM	#37
TreeWürx Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Wyoming farm country. Posts: 93	Incredible video. I hope you can make a good proto type and maybe sell the patent. That would make you more money for more toys. Every time I think I have come up with a new innovation, I look in a catalog and find out some else already made it. __________________ *Never underestimate the power of human stupidity.* If you are ever feeling down and depressed and want to feel better about yourself, just take a walk through Wal-Mart.

11-07-2009, 10:29 PM	#39
lostcoastland Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Eureka,CA Posts: 96	I feel your props towwards daily climbers. I 'm starting into a few weeks of incessant climbign and trimming acress of tree's; deadwooding. After 3 weeeks of traditiona; climb to anchor point. rappel to base of nearby tree and climb it. I bought a new Sliky Yamabico and a Longboy polesaw in my efforts to reduce my labors. Other time savers will be rigging nearby clumps of trees with my throwline and srt'ing with spikes to trim hearty redwood tree's... crown lifts 80' plus( Which they handle Fine). I like the Grappel and will no doubt craft one out of metal soon...or have my blacksmith freind do... __________________ 260pro 028 AV x 2 056 064 200t 330-t Silky Ibuki Silky Long Boy Silky Yamabico 86 turbo international harvester Ford 4x4 w. 10k# Winch and skid plate, Tool box of chokers and cat cables, throwlines,come-alongs, monkey skills.... 04 Toyota Taco-2wd w' camper shell

10-12-2009, 09:23 AM	#33
moss Arboristsite MVP Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Jamaica Plain, Massachusetts Posts: 881	Thanks for the comments TM. FYI: I didn't invent the grapnel horizontal retrieve technique, folks on the Tree Climber's Coalition forum have been working through various similar ideas, mine is one more refinement of the technique and is very close to what's called the "J~bird Dangle". -moss

10-13-2009, 11:21 AM	#36
moss Arboristsite MVP Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Jamaica Plain, Massachusetts Posts: 881	Thanks TM, can I use your comments in my resume? :-) Seriously though, as a rec climber I recognize that I'll never be the climber that a daily work climber is. Fortunately I have the opportunity and inclination to work on new techniques and ideas, if pro climbers find any of it useful, all the better! -moss

11-09-2009, 08:02 PM	#40
cookiecutter Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Idaho Posts: 28	This is one of the videos that got me excited about tree climbing. Up till now I'd only heard of it from an arborist on campus. Doing a quick google search brought me here, and to this video. I can't wait to get started! I come from a climbing/canyoneering type background and this tree climbing is something I can do right in my backyard so to speak. Very awesome! So thanks for the video, very inspirational!

11-12-2009, 07:05 PM	#44
Tree Machine Arboristsite MVP Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 4,089	I'm of that other 1% . Having come from a friction hitch beginning, the inefficiency of 2:1 ascent with all the extra required physical motion and friction losses within the system and the inordinate amount of slack tending, I just had to look to other aerial disciplines. No one in the world uses 2:1 friction hitch methods except treeguys, and its a tradition from the manila rope age, passed from generation to generation before good hardware existed. To be honest, I like tradition and I hope the friction hitch lives on. Currently, technical climbers incorporate ascenders or other rope grabs, pulleys, expensive and consumable high-tech eye-eye spliced tress cords, additional connectors, dog leashes, foot-mounted ascenders and friction saving devices at the tie-in point all to make this rather difficult system more tolerable. Being able to go instantly from ascent to descent may be viewed as the primary or only advantage of 2:1, but if it only takes 5-7 seconds to change over from ascent to descent, using ascenders and a friction piece, I'll pay that price and take all the advantages that 1:1 doubled or single rope technique have to offer. Watching guys hoist men up into trees with skid loaders, or ground men pulling tail in assistance, or dudes looking to multi-thousand dollar powered ascender systems just to overcome the inherent difficulty of friction hitch ascent just makes me shake my head. On the descent, friction hitch methods are not too bad, as long as the doubled line above you doesn't rub across a limb or around a stem, and as long as you don't use redirects on your rope or drop down through a limb's natural fork to the limb below. I personally can't deal with the limitations imposed, the inefficiency and the extra effort required to use the friction hitch system. But I do think the system is cool and applaud the innovators of past who came up with it. Up and down with nothing but a rope. I admire it deeply and find it next to useless, having the option of modern simple and economic devices. Still, I say, long live the friction hitch. __________________ -TM-

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