Vintage ignition help

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Arrowhead

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A member in Australia has an early Pioneer P50. It has the old three piece ignition. He does not know which part is bad. I have the same setup I plan on sending him, with the same problem... I don't know which piece is bad. We though maybe he'd get lucky and the piece he needs will be good on the stuff I have. This system does not use points.

I was wondering if you guys think a Nova Module would work on this style ignition. I have no knowledge on the Nova style modules.
Yes, no, maybe....

IMG_4532.jpg
 
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Wow Ed, what a question.

Typically, talking to the old timers that ran and worked on these saws everyday, usually it was the condenser or the stator that went out,
not the actual coil itself.

As far as a Nova or Atom solid-state module is concerned, well I would be game for trying it.

My reasoning is, the stator is taking the place of the points and this set-up still has the condenser. The solid state module is
designed to do the job of the points and condenser(?).
 
OK, so which part(s) does the nova module replace? I have no knowledge of them either.

They are relatively cheap, no? Could I buy one and just try it on a saw that already works, or is this non reversable?

This is a good subject Ed, but you're still a midget.:)
 
This an oversimplification, but here's how it works:

As the flywheel magnets moveup on the stator coil, they induce a current, some of which gets momentarily stored in the capacitor. Some goes to ground through the primary windings of the spark coil, but since its so little current, nothing really happens in the high-tension windings

At some point the magnet passes the stator pole and the curent field begins to reverse; the condensor "dumps" its charge (in reverse) instantly collapsing the field in the primary winding of the spark coil. You get a spark!

Here are the tests I would make withought knowing the values of the parts involved:

Separate the leads out of the stator piece and check continuity with no connection to the spark coil. You should have a small resistance, but not zero which could indicate a short. If it seems OK, hook your meter up ( a sweeping needle works better here than a digital) as a voltmeter and spin the engine. You should be able to create an alternating current of about 2-5 volts at cranking speeds. You'll probably see it better on D.C. meter setting. If you see some action, the stator coil is probably OK.

Check the condesnor for shorts, and if you have the right meter, check for capacitance. You may find a small-engine shop that still has a merc-o-tronic meter and someone who knows how to use it for this; failing that check with radio/tv shops, etc.
Withought knowing the specifics of your system, I don't want to suggest what values you're going to want to look for. Typical points-style ignitions usually had capacitirs around .25 uF, while most CDI's like to store more electrons; up to 1 uF or a little more. The capacitance determines not only energy released but timing so you'll need to get it right...I hope and pray someone who knows the answer chimes in here to help out!

To check the spark coil, check the primary and secondary winding resistances: the primary should be a small value (like 1-3 ohms) while the 2ndary will be in the 1000's. If your values fall into this range, test spark. I use an old tractor distributor and a battery: connect the coil terminal to the low-tension lead, connect the other side (or ground) to the neg terminal of the battery and connect the positive terminal of the battery to the distributor body to complete the path. Put a plain (non resistance) plug you know is good and ground the plug to the distibutor body: now give the distributor gear a twist. Use a small battery like a 6v lantern battery, or my favorite, a tired 6V tractor battery. If you see sparks, your coil is probably good.

Because I love to play with old stuff like this I have the old distributor mounted in wooden block and electrical clips and leads at the ready for a quick coil test. If you're not in a hurry, you can conjure up almost anything that will serve. I learned this trick from an auto shop teacher in HS who used nothing more than a chev 6 points and condensor set mounted on a piece of wood, but his setup could result in a sharp jolt if you wereen't careful where you put your fingers to poke the points open.
 
Yep, but you got to have something pick it up from the flywheel and that trigger on that setup is what does that.

The coil is on the end of the spark plug wire correct?

Im just asking here....

This I don't know. In the service manual, they're calling that piece on the spark plug wire the "stator" which leads me to believe it's like the
ignition trigger on a more modern ignition like the two-piece Stihl 028.
 
This an oversimplification, but here's how it works:

As the flywheel magnets moveup on the stator coil, they induce a current, some of which gets momentarily stored in the capacitor. Some goes to ground through the primary windings of the spark coil, but since its so little current, nothing really happens in the high-tension windings

At some point the magnet passes the stator pole and the curent field begins to reverse; the condensor "dumps" its charge (in reverse) instantly collapsing the field in the primary winding of the spark coil. You get a spark!

Here are the tests I would make withought knowing the values of the parts involved:

Separate the leads out of the stator piece and check continuity with no connection to the spark coil. You should have a small resistance, but not zero which could indicate a short. If it seems OK, hook your meter up ( a sweeping needle works better here than a digital) as a voltmeter and spin the engine. You should be able to create an alternating current of about 2-5 volts at cranking speeds. You'll probably see it better on D.C. meter setting. If you see some action, the stator coil is probably OK.

Check the condesnor for shorts, and if you have the right meter, check for capacitance. You may find a small-engine shop that still has a merc-o-tronic meter and someone who knows how to use it for this; failing that check with radio/tv shops, etc.
Withought knowing the specifics of your system, I don't want to suggest what values you're going to want to look for. Typical points-style ignitions usually had capacitirs around .25 uF, while most CDI's like to store more electrons; up to 1 uF or a little more. The capacitance determines not only energy released but timing so you'll need to get it right...I hope and pray someone who knows the answer chimes in here to help out!

To check the spark coil, check the primary and secondary winding resistances: the primary should be a small value (like 1-3 ohms) while the 2ndary will be in the 1000's. If your values fall into this range, test spark. I use an old tractor distributor and a battery: connect the coil terminal to the low-tension lead, connect the other side (or ground) to the neg terminal of the battery and connect the positive terminal of the battery to the distributor body to complete the path. Put a plain (non resistance) plug you know is good and ground the plug to the distibutor body: now give the distributor gear a twist. Use a small battery like a 6v lantern battery, or my favorite, a tired 6V tractor battery. If you see sparks, your coil is probably good.

Because I love to play with old stuff like this I have the old distributor mounted in wooden block and electrical clips and leads at the ready for a quick coil test. If you're not in a hurry, you can conjure up almost anything that will serve. I learned this trick from an auto shop teacher in HS who used nothing more than a chev 6 points and condensor set mounted on a piece of wood, but his setup could result in a sharp jolt if you wereen't careful where you put your fingers to poke the points open.

Wow, I read this 4 times and it still don't compute. LOL
When it comes to electrical stuff, I need the 3rd grade instructions like... check the red wire going to the black round thing. :msp_biggrin:
Your knowledge is very impressive. Too much for my brain to understand. Somebody here about a year ago taught me how to check a condenser by charging it with a D cell battery, then using the meter to check it. It was a very simple method, but I don't remember how to do it now. All I have is a digital meter.

Do you think a Nova module would work? What would it replace?
 
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Wow, I read this 4 times and it still don't compute. LOL
When it comes to electrical stuff, I need the 3rd grade instructions like... check the red wire going to the black round thing. :msp_biggrin:
Your knowledge is very impressive. Too much for my brain to understand. Somebody here about a year ago taught me how to check a condenser by charging it with a D cell battery, then using the meter to check it. It was a very simple method, but I don't remember how to do it now. All I have is a digital meter.

Do you think a Nova module would work? What would it replace?

Yeah I can wrap my feeble brain around a concept like "The piston (see figure a.) goes up and down in the cylinder (see figure b.)

Electrical stuff just zaps me.
 
Wow, I read this 4 times and it still don't compute. LOL
When it comes to electrical stuff, I need the 3rd grade instructions like... check the red wire going to the black round thing. :msp_biggrin:
Your knowledge is very impressive. Too much for my brain to understand. Somebody here about a year ago taught me how to check a condenser by charging it with a D cell battery, then using the meter to check it. It was a very simple method, but I don't remember how to do it now. All I have is a digital meter.

Do you think a Nova module would work? What would it replace?

Arrowhead, to test the condenser first disconnect it from the ignition. Check the condenser for short with your ohmmeter, if it is not shorted then connect the condenser case to the negative side of your D cell battery then connect the wire of the condenser to the battery postive. Next disconnect the battery from the condenser and set your meter for dc volts and measure the voltage on the condenser (negative on case,positive on wire) .
 
Arrowhead, to test the condenser first disconnect it from the ignition. Check the condenser for short with your ohmmeter, if it is not shorted then connect the condenser case to the negative side of your D cell battery then connect the wire of the condenser to the battery postive. Next disconnect the battery from the condenser and set your meter for dc volts and measure the voltage on the condenser (negative on case,positive on wire) .

Hi everyone, i'm the aussie with the p50 troubles. First of all thank you so much for all your help, it's food for thought! I only have a digital multimeter but i think i'll try some of test described. I have found a 1 peice coil on ebay thats fits a p52,62 and was wondering if I could replace all three parts with the single unit??
 
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Hi everyone, i'm the aussie with the p50 troubles. First of all thank you so much for all your help, it's food for thought! I only have a digital multimeter but i think i'll try some of test described. I have found a 1 peice coil on ebay thats fits a p52,62 and was wondering if I could replace all three parts with the single unit??

It won't bolt onto your cylinder. It is possible to convert but you have to change the jug and flywheel as well I believe.
 
I apologgize: I know what I'm talking about, but I'm not that good at communicating.

I imagine this thread is too old to mstter anymore, but I can still try to clean up my mess?

In the original photo
<img src="http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae72/arrowheadpioneer/IMG_4532.jpg">

There are 3 wires coming from the stator: A fairly large #14 or #16 Black wire to the ign switch (grounds out circuit to kill engine). Red to spark coil, and fine (#18 or #20) black lead to condensor. From the spark coil we also have a black ground wire and a large plug wire.

It looks like the all 3 wires from the stator coil may have been separated: my forst step would be to unwrap the tape and inspect the wires. The condensor wire looks like it might have been covered with heat-shring tubing, but there's also and small kink...look for breaks. If you find a break, fix that first and check.

Next, separate the condensor and check as others have suggested. The capacity check only determines if it has an internal short and has lost part of its value: the other tests may show that it is definitely bad, or maybe good.

Check the stator coil for resistance and shorts to ground. Resistance should be low, but there should be no continuity to the armatures...only in the red, out the black. Look closely at te armature layers: they should be tight and stacked smooth. If one or more leaves have a gap, there might be damage.

The spark coil should show a small resistance between the red wire and the ground, and thousands from the red wire to the spark plug cap. If you get less than 3000 ohms (probably more like 5-8K) the coil has a short. If higher than 8 or infinite, its not impossible that even the spark lead has a break ...roll back the plug boot to examine the clip and its crimp onto the plug wire.
 

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