Pepper Tree Roots

[mnorm10]

I live in southern California and have a concrete slab patio. There is a large pepper tree planted on a slope in our backyard and there are pepper tree roots running directly underneath where the patio has lifted and is getting worse. The roots are approx. 2 inches in diameter. Are they enough to cause lifting/sinking of my slab and bricks surrounding it? How do I prove this?

 

[ch woodchuck]

Schinus molle..Brazilian/cal.pepper tree.Posting pics is always helpful in determining a solution.Knowing how far the tree base is from the patio would also help(pics!)Unless you have jurrasic park sized gophers.....I'd say it's a root problem.If you can see the particular roots in question,that should be proof enough.What to do?Surgically removing the offending roots a bit back from the patio edge would work.Depending on the percentage of roots removed,the tree might need to be lightly pruned to make up for root loss.
All this is off the top of my head..going on what info there is.
Roots will grow back if pruned properly...Might think about a root barrier to aleviate future problems.
cheers..chuck

 

[Guido Salvage]

Never had any of my pepper plants get to tree size, must be a California thing...

Uplifting of concrete is most often done by roots, settling is usually a result of erosion or settling of the earth underneath the slab.

 

[mnorm10]

Pepper Tree Roots Cont'd

Ch. Woodchuck:

The tree is 30 feet from the patio and is approx 30-40 feet high. see photos attached of roots that went directly under patio. I know it seems obvious that they are the offending thing, but my association (who owns the tree) hired an arborist whose opinion states that "although it is possible, it is unlikely with roots this small." He also wrongly said the tree was approx. 80 feet from the patio and I measured yesterday. He never personally came to our home.

You judge for yourself. They are trying to argue that the lifting is a natural result of settling. Please let me know what you think. BTW the larger root was found running directly under where the patio lifted.

 

[jefflovstrom]

Ch. Woodchuck:

The tree is 30 feet from the patio and is approx 30-40 feet high. see photos attached of roots that went directly under patio. I know it seems obvious that they are the offending thing, but my association (who owns the tree) hired an arborist whose opinion states that "although it is possible, it is unlikely with roots this small." He also wrongly said the tree was approx. 80 feet from the patio and I measured yesterday. He never personally came to our home.

You judge for yourself. They are trying to argue that the lifting is a natural result of settling. Please let me know what you think. BTW the larger root was found running directly under where the patio lifted.

I am in San Diego county and a certified arborist. This is common. The roots will grow out from the tree at least one and a half time's the height. Tell your association to get another opinion!
Jeff

 

[derwoodii]

Yes quite common for roots to explore under concrete surface as the environment there can be ideal for their needs. The picture shows me roots that may easily lift form work that is not designed for root trespass. A solution may be to server any offending roots found and a trench barrier installed about the tree drip line. A good cert arborist should be able to assist here. note these barriers have a limited life span.
What I don't see is a good sub base foundation for the concrete patio, the pictures shows no sign of consolidated rock base. This may be cause for easy root impact lifting and also subsidence as surface has little support

 

[jefflovstrom]

HOA's should only use cert guys. Oh, but that cost more!
Jeff

 

[jefflovstrom]

Is this tree on your property?If so, I'd assume it's your responsibility...If not,then it's the HOA responsibility?Might be getting into a legal issue...not our area of expertise.I suggest you find a ''cal certified consulting arborist''(rather than an arborist,there is a difference).with some legal background...expert witness in cases such as this.Check your yellow pages.Is there an estimate of the damage?And would it be worthwhile to go to all that legal hassle?
The consensus here is,you have a root problem.Our word against theirs.Why you need an experienced certified ca. consulting arborist.

chuck.

Hey Chuck, Did you read this post from the beginning? No!
Read before you post!
Jeff

 

[ch woodchuck]

Spacially disoriented.....Long day.

 

[jefflovstrom]

Spacially disoriented.....Long day.

LOL!, Long day here, too.
Jeff

 

[pdqdl]

While the roots are certainly going under the patio, a 2" diameter expansion within the subgrade seems unlikely to be a problem for any unlevel conditions. I would look at "settling" more than at "root expansion" as the source of your problem.

 

[mnorm10]

While the roots are certainly going under the patio, a 2" diameter expansion within the subgrade seems unlikely to be a problem for any unlevel conditions. I would look at "settling" more than at "root expansion" as the source of your problem.

But isn't settling caused by roots sucking up water?

 

[derwoodii]

Depends upon soil types, reactive clays yes it can, soft soils or sands unlikely but they will compress with weight and water.

 

[pdqdl]

But isn't settling caused by roots sucking up water?

No. Not at all.

Moisture levels in the soil rise and fall according to the weather. Tree roots will only accelerate the rate at which water leaves an area.

Tree roots are part of the living body of the trees. As the top grows, so does the area beneath the ground. They capture carbon dioxide from the air, mix it with sunlight and soil nutrients, and they turn it into wood fibers down in the ground. Given enough time, this growth will displace the soil and RAISE your porch, sidewalks, curbs, or whatever else gets in the way.

Just look at the grade around any large, full grown tree in a somewhat level area. The ground rises on all sides to meet the tree. Even if the trunk is cut off at the ground level and the stump is ground out, there is still a giant cone of raised earth where the tree has literally displaced the soil and caused a big lump in the otherwise perfectly flat lawn. Where erosion and turf elimination has occurred, you still have a cone of roots erupting from the soil.

 

[mnorm10]

Help

I am in San Diego county and a certified arborist. This is common. The roots will grow out from the tree at least one and a half time's the height. Tell your association to get another opinion!
Jeff

Still fighting with my HOA about this. May need to hire expert for court. What is your contact info? Also, how much do you charge for a consult?

 

[jefflovstrom]

Still fighting with my HOA about this. May need to hire expert for court. What is your contact info? Also, how much do you charge for a consult?

I do not advertise here or self promote. Not to be mean, but the best thing you can do is go here,, International Society of Arboriculture,
On the right hand side is a box that say's, 'I am a',,
BTW, it is super easy to get my contact info,,:biggrin:
Jeff

 

[pdqdl]

I do not advertise here or self promote. Not to be mean, but the best thing you can do is go here,, International Society of Arboriculture,
On the right hand side is a box that say's, 'I am a',,
BTW, it is super easy to get my contact info,,:biggrin:
Jeff

Good call, jeff.

To the OP: I think you would do well to track ol' Jeff down. He has often demonstrated extensive knowledge and experience in this field, and certainly has no qualms about telling you the way it is. His credentials are extensive, and he works for a rather large, well managed company, at least as best I can tell from my experiences online with him.

On the other hand, don't call him if you just want someone to corroborate your opinion. He isn't that kind of guy.