Who is at fault here. Climber or ground crew?

avalancher · Nov 12, 2008

This video was posted on the joke forum, but I thought a critical look by the pros would shed some light on who screwed up here. Take a look at the 4th video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9qcPh5iM4E

treemandan · Nov 12, 2008

stuff like this is set off by many factors, people and events prior... everybody has blame.
I brought this question up before though and if that had been me getting jounced around like that there would have been a very sorry groundy.
Who knows in this case. maybe the guy didn't even have a groundy. Its a hard vid to watch in any case.
No matter what the pole is going to move. Everybody should know how to handle it. The times I was beat up like that it was groundy error but that doesn't mean it was his fault. make sense?

avalancher · Nov 12, 2008

treemandan said:
stuff like this is set off by many factors, people and events prior... everybody has blame.
I brought this question up before though and if that had been me getting jounced around like that there would have been a very sorry groundy.
Who knows in this case. maybe the guy didn't even have a groundy. Its a hard vid to watch in any case.
No matter what the pole is going to move. Everybody should know how to handle it. The times I was beat up like that it was groundy error but that doesn't mean it was his fault. make sense?

Yep, makes sense. I know that if that had been me I would had to climb on down and change my shorts. Like you said, it was a hard video to watch.

Climbing Cutter · Nov 12, 2008

In the original video you can hear the groundman yell sorry.

treemandan · Nov 12, 2008

Climbing Cutter said:
In the original video you can hear the groundman yell sorry.

Yeah... that is usually the case. I did a horrid stint at this place that had the worst. I thought I had learned awhile before but them but I still never had it as bad as that guy.
This message is approvved by THE DAN, dumper of tops big as whales onto locked off ropes far below, un-aided and alone... and that is what makes me think " Why the hell didn't the guy even think he was going to have to hold on".
The combination of things... with some its like a crap shoot, like its their LAST day.

squad143 · Nov 12, 2008

As always, gravity is to blame. :dizzy:

Del_ · Nov 12, 2008

It takes team work to pull off a stunt like that!

RedlineIt · Nov 12, 2008

In the original video you can hear the groundman yell sorry.

Yeah, I've seen/heard that version too. Whatever was going on down on the ground, it did not go to plan. The top does run for ways but then it abruptly stops. Was the groundie standing on the rope like an idiot? Was he inexperienced and thought the run had been enough? What was the groundie given to use as a braking system? Another tree? A truck hitch? I've seen a pitchy section of bull rope mess up a nice two wrap run on a port-a-wrap.

As for the climber, he was not ready. You can ask for a run, you can insist on a run, you can ask them if they're ready to let it run, you can train your guys how to let it run, you can supply perfect equipment to allow a run, you still gotta be ready for a less than beautiful run.

And as fun as it is to blow a big top, if it is being square rigged on the same spar I'm on, I'm climbing up higher and dinking out smaller bits.

RedlineIt

oldirty · Nov 12, 2008

if you listen close you can still hear the "sorry".

locked it up good and tight on that guy. that right there is what i would consider the tree man's wrecked convertible. time for a change of shorts.

did you happen to catch the ******* in the last part of that video!? still laughing.

Mikecutstrees · Nov 12, 2008

Yup I agree.... on a spar that small you have a very high chance of going for a nasty ride. I usually drop the top into an acceptable area or have the groundies run it all the way to the ground. Hitting the ground slow on a rope top first will do very very little damage to a lawn if any. Usually I will drop the top nice and flat. Maybe on a few sheets of plywood so no damage and little risk to me. Gotten shook hard a few too many times by a nervous groundie.... Mike

lxt · Nov 12, 2008

LOL! that last one was hysterical, brought that womans large thighs right up to her head!! guys im dying after watching that! I can barely type! LOL!!!

LXT...........

parrisw · Nov 13, 2008

ha ha ha. I've seen it before, and laugh my ass off every time. I love the exercise one, freaking priceless.

randyg · Nov 13, 2008

Who's At Fault???

Longer run by groundie makes less swing for sure BUT, leaving that stub to hang onto was perhaps the biggest mistake that climber made. Took one in the ribs once just about like that guy. Nothing to laugh about. If you can stay on the back side with stiff arms on the top, and the swing is just front to back, pretty mild. When the sway gets to the side, can be more like tryin to stay that 8 seconds on the bull . . . I can only imagine the bull thing.

Groundman One · Nov 13, 2008

The climber could have gone higher. I don't see any reason to cut that big a top unless it's a free fall. He should have known, and the groundman should have known as well, that that much weight playing off that thickness of trunk was going to lead to some serious swing-ation.

I'm curious how the top was tied off at the base. With that much weight coming down over houses, the ground crew is apt to be conservative and that means a greater chance of the falling piece locking up after the cut. For the climber to expect that size of a piece to come down in a smooth and controlled fashion is asking a lot. Too much in my opinion.

My climber would have gone higher, removed more branches, and maybe gone for a slow and controlled rip with the rope locked for minimal swing. That guy had too much loose. it was unreasonable for him to think a piece that size would have that much a free fall and then go straight into a smooth descent.

Badly done. Mostly on the climber's side. As the groundpounder, I would have protested the setup and only gone through with it if the climber acknowledged the risk and accepted it.

Paulkl · Nov 13, 2008

i have had somthing like that happen to me, i was topping out a pin oak and my ground guys tired the rope off and the whip landed a nub right into my chest... Needless to say i made him sorry :buttkick:

chainsaw:

Ax-man · Nov 13, 2008

That vid has been around for awhile. Lot of discussion on it when it first hit the net.

Popular opinon was that it was the ground crew's foul up by not letting the piece run enough and stopping it abruptly causing the whip or backlash effect.

I think the climber could have used more common sense and taken a smaller piece or just climbed up a little higher and limbed it more and then dumped the top with a pull rope. Anyone that has climbed enough trees knows or should know when they are going to be in for ride from the reaction force of a top breaking loose wether it is in a freefall situation or is being roped down and need to plan accordingly. In my case I would have doubled up on the lanyard with a second wrap if I was going to do it the way this guy did. I may have gotten knocked around a little but not thrown around like a ragdoll on that spar.

Without being there and not seeing the whole picture it is hard to say who was at fault. For all we know the guy who took the hit could have been a contract climber and took for granted the skill of the ground crew.

I think both the climber and the ground crew are equally to blame on this one. Unfortunely the guy up in the tree took a bad hit on this one and may have been injured.

Like TreeCo stated it takes teamwork to make a lowering like this work the way it should but doesn't always go according to plan.

Larry

pdqdl · Nov 14, 2008

Leave some damping material !

I was reading another post elsewhere on AS about lion tailing and the damping effects of inner branches. I was thinking of this very same video when I concluded that taking large tops out might be facilitated by leaving one half of the branches on the lower trunk, opposite the side you would drop the large top onto. The sway would have significant damping, and the climber would not get shaken off.

While there is certainly a greater risk of hanging the top up with difficulty lowering it, if you left one half of the branches on the tree, it would NEVER sway back and forth like that one did in this video.

I seldom get to see a large pine like this one. Does anyone with more experience in tall pines have any comments on this idea?

southsoundtree · Nov 14, 2008

pdqdl said:
I was reading another post elsewhere on AS about lion tailing and the damping effects of inner branches. I was thinking of this very same video when I concluded that taking large tops out might be facilitated by leaving one half of the branches on the lower trunk, opposite the side you would drop the large top onto. The sway would have significant damping, and the climber would not get shaken off.

While there is certainly a greater risk of hanging the top up with difficulty lowering it, if you left one half of the branches on the tree, it would NEVER sway back and forth like that one did in this video.

I seldom get to see a large pine like this one. Does anyone with more experience in tall pines have any comments on this idea?

+1.

Even if the climber just left a handful of branches to the right and left sides right up near the top, he would have had significant dampening effects without having to move his tie-ins through a lot of branches.

Go smaller.

I've told my groundies that, as much as possible, they should be ready to get a little trunk wrap friction as needed in the even that the port-a-wrap doesn't have enough friction. This seems to give the extra measure of control without as great a risk of locking it up.

Always requires a good stack of rope, out in front of the groundie, so nothing can snag his feet.

As stated in the thread, running it all the way to the ground with the top hitting tip first, as possible by ground level targets, should create minimal, if any, damage, while still staying within a tight dropzone. Coulda been a house beneath, though.

avalancher · Nov 14, 2008

southsoundtree said:
+1.
As stated in the thread, running it all the way to the ground with the top hitting tip first, as possible by ground level targets, should create minimal, if any, damage, while still staying within a tight dropzone. Coulda been a house beneath, though.

You would think though that if there was ANYTHING that could be damaged below that he would have taken smaller pieces down at a time. I know I wouldnt dream of taking that much top down in one piece if it was above a house.

JTinaTree · Nov 14, 2008

That video has been picked to death on this site. Ekka posted a good review on what went wrong on both of the workers parts, Ekka included slow motion views in the video also...if you search on here Im sure you can find it.. The are many factors into what happened on that Tree, but the main thing was the lowering line was not allowed to run by the groundman...

Who is at fault here. Climber or ground crew?

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