Help with a mid-line loop

Hard to tell but it looked like the Alpine was tied differently than the butterfly I tie. I tie mine a little differently than the animation though. I make a couple of twists then pull the bite up through to tie the butterfly. Maybe it's the same knot just tied in a different manner. Looping it around the hand is kind of throwing me.

tree md said:

Hard to tell but it looked like the Alpine was tied differently than the butterfly I tie. I tie mine a little differently than the animation though. I make a couple of twists then pull the bite up through to tie the butterfly. Maybe it's the same knot just tied in a different manner. Looping it around the hand is kind of throwing me.

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I tie it by looping it around my hand usually, although what you're doing is putting a couple twists in it and pulling the bite through the loops in the twist. So maybe it's the same as what you're doing? You can also use it to join two lines together (imagine cutting the loop), although the method is different the knot is the same.

My favorite part about the alpine butterfly is that I can always untie it easily. I've used it with some 3/8 Amsteel and pulled a firetruck out of the mud with it. When I was done I was able to untie the knot (not quite with just my fingers, but close). There was a lot of force on that knot, but you could still roll the wings back and work the knot loose.

You must consider the line you use in any lacing. But, the Butterfly is great in many lines. It can add midline eye, add multiple eyes at one point, be used to isolate a weak part of line, even bend several lines to one.

Mostly it is used as a single eye, in a single line. But, it must be dressed correctly, is best if the eye is loaded last and less, and that the 2 ends of the line are loaded about the same. Each end pull is the lock, and equal pulls give least unbalance/deformity. The eye is also best, if it is to be loaded, to be pulled perpendicular with the line, and not inline/down the line's length.

Prussicks are great too; but when whole line is loaded, is not the same when only area 'above' prussick is loaded. When the area below prussik is not loaded, the prussick sits on a tensioned/skinnier line; on top of a 'shelf' of the 'fatter' unloaded line below it. When the whole line is loaded, the area below the prussik can become 'skinnier', and not have the shelf advantage against slip.

i advocate using both hands at different positions for final tightening on MA jigs. Seek a point of pull for 2nd hand that is just on other side of primary hand pull from first pulley that that hand pull goes thru. Seek to place all body weight on primary hand pull, then pick up on that 2nd hand pull, giving 1xBodyweight + 2xeffort as inputs. Thus, get body = 4xEffort on zRig and body + 8xEffort on a '5:1'. Impacting as input is also possibility, especially when you have 1 force (body weight) to keep load in check, and then can impact with other force(effort) (or reverse), or both impact at same time.

A slack line has no sideways resistance (it moves giving up distance instead of building power/tension as distance x force is applied); so a slack line can't be leveraged with perpendicular force. But, a tensioned line, does resist sideways force, reducing the distance/ building tension in response to force applied. Thus, we can leverage a tense line like this, then also feed that as input into the zRig etc. for another type of final tightening etc.

Harness loop

pdqdl said:

Tie it this way (properly?), load it well once on the loop, it is there until you want to untie it. This will hold with either tail of the rope loose, and not slip.

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:agree2:
You're right - tied this way, it seems to be much more secure. Looks like the "Harness Loop" has taken the lead (pun intended) as the most compact mid-line loop.

I got a twist or cross-over in the loop part ('backside' of knot). Is that what makes it more secure than the standard Harness Loop? pdqdl, what's the chance of you posting pix of you're knot, dressed and set?

Butterfly vs. the Alpine Butterfly

pdqdl said:

I always thought it was the same knot. You mean there is a "butterfly" AND an "alpine butterfly" knot?

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:agree2:I always thought they were the same, too.

tree md said:

Hard to tell but it looked like the Alpine was tied differently than the butterfly I tie. I tie mine a little differently than the animation though. I make a couple of twists then pull the bite up through to tie the butterfly. Maybe it's the same knot just tied in a different manner. Looping it around the hand is kind of throwing me.

Click to expand...

:agree2:Yeah, that's the way I've always tied it, too. ABOK (#1053. Lineman's Loop) shows it tied this way.

canopyboy said:

I tie it by looping it around my hand usually, ...

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Chapman's show's it tied this way - Called a "Single Lineman's Loop"
Sherrill's show's it tied around the hand, too - calls it "Butterfly"

I would be great to see some pix. How about those that tie the "Butterfly" and those that tie the "Alpine Butterfly", post some pix? They might really be the same knot!

Some same things are called differently, due to history, local, unfamiliarity etc. Best to look at the mechanics, of how the laced machine is laid; and achieves it's target, then compair those values. Even some knot authori-ties and books disagree, so much so that that knudeKnoggin querys that some 'miss-takes' were on purpose to reveal trails to a plagiarized source!!

Butterfly should be symmetrically loaded, to pull a Half Hitch/ OverHand around self from each leg towards eye; kinda reminiscent of a Bowline type trapping to nip-applied by each of the long legs tracing to eye. It is these parts that should be balanced and aligned as the working parts. Notice, that in use a zRig can place 3xEffort on the top leg to Butterfly, while placing only 1xEffort on the lower leg; other 2x coming from the eye. So, though we use it, this configuration loading(imbalanced leg pulls and eye loaded more than a leg; then eye not pulled perpendicular to legs) doesn't show the true ease of the Butterfly to stay symmetrical and untie easily, isn't shown at max.

Ok, here is how I tie what I know as the "Alpine Butterfly":

Step 1 - Twist the rope and run your hand through the first three loops of the twist, with the first loop (bite) going under your wrist.



Step 2 - Pull that bite under your wrist to your finger tips, going over the remaining loops around your hand.



Step 3 - Pull the bite back through the loops.

Step 4 - Tighten. This is what I call the End Loop version, and have used it successfully this way much the way you would use a Figure 8 on a bite.



Step 5 - Pull the two ends of the rope apart, and the knot "rolls" into the recognizable butterfly.

You can also tie it with two ends and use it like a bend:







PS - Please ignore the fact that I'm demonstrating using crap rope....

SINGLE-JACK said:

:agree2:
You're right - tied this way, it seems to be much more secure. Looks like the "Harness Loop" has taken the lead (pun intended) as the most compact mid-line loop.

I got a twist or cross-over in the loop part ('backside' of knot). Is that what makes it more secure than the standard Harness Loop? pdqdl, what's the chance of you posting pix of you're knot, dressed and set?

Click to expand...

The reference I sent earlier IS my knot: I took these pictures. I did not pull the knot real tight in the last photo; all you need to do is hold the loop and then pull on each tail. Together, or seperately, it doesn't matter.

Here it is again:
http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?p=1187344#post1187344

As tree spyder pointed out, the alpine butterfly needs to be held together by loading on both tails simultaneously. The man-harness knot seems to be the reverse of that, as it works better when loaded from the loop and either tail.
[I am not an alpine butterfly knot expert: I have never used it, as I knew the man-harness knot since I was 13]

Since I never put a mid-line knot in a rope without using it, this seems like the best choice, given the dynamics of the usual loading and the performance of both knots.

I used to use the alpine butterfly until I discovered the directional figure 8. It is really easy to tie and very nice looking. I have had no problem untying it after a few hundred pounds load.

CHAPTER l: ON KNOTS

Of Knots, it is necessary that 1 speak. . .

A Naval Repository, 1762

The sailor, from the very nature of his craft, has a dependence
upon rope and a consequent familiarity with knots that is demanded
of no other workman. It follows that most important knots owe both
their origin and their names to the requirements of a ship at sea. So
diverse are these requirements that the number of knots devised by
the sailor is probably ten times greater than the sum of all other
handicrafts combined. Nor is this surprising if we consider that on a
full-rigged ship, in everyday use, are several miles of rigging, and
an able seaman, of necessity, is acquainted with every inch of this
extent.
Knotting has been an important adjunct to the everyday life of all
people from the earliest days of which we have knowledge. There are
still primitive races who fasten their huts, traps, canoes, and harness
with knotted thongs and withes. But civilized man is no less dependent
on knots than his more backward brothers, even though
knots today are much less in evidence in sophisticated surroundings.
Long ago man recognized the decorative possibilities of knots, and
"fancy knotting" is one of the oldest and most widely distributed of
the folk arts. But it remained for the sailor to seize upon this art and
to develop it into something that is peculiarly his own.

Man, this book rocks!

Mid line bowline

SINGLE-JACK said:

Finally got it tied right. It looks like another good mid-line loop. It also requires a careful "dress & set" before using. It looks like it could be turned into a double mid-line loop, also. I'll have to test it some more.

Thanks buffalo bill! Never seen it before.

Click to expand...

Just make sure you clip into the right loop with that one or it aint easy to untie!

moray said:

I used to use the alpine butterfly until I discovered the directional figure 8. It is really easy to tie and very nice looking. I have had no problem untying it after a few hundred pounds load.

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I never heard of a directional figure 8, could you post a reference or pics?

It is an eight on a bight that is tied so you dress inline with the pull

i'd thin we'd want to go for 9 or 10?

TheTreeSpyder said:

i'd thin we'd want to go for 9 or 10?

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We know you are thin Kenny (a squirrel on meth)

What were you quoting?

BTW with the directional 8; I find it easier to untie of I dress it with worry point at a right angle to the pull.



That would be the single turn at the top of the image. Worry points are those bends that will move easy after loading so that you can wiggle, or worry away at them til the knot will come apart. I know a few people who will start a pull out with a scwrench in a worry point, just in case.

Ok. That is what I thought he meant, but I never heard it called that.

Figure 8 is an excellent mid-line loop also. More secure than almost anything else, but not quite as easy to tie and untie as the man-harness.

Ummmm 1 Turn would give Overhand Loop, 2/RoundTurn giveth fig.8, more Turn(s) added to move to fig.9 and 10. Adds bulk but easier to werk safely and untie. Noted in Life on a Line by Dr. Merchant. He has paid version out now, but had freebie in 3 parts fopr years, 3 parts cuz it was soooooooo long ago that they were worried about the filesize! i have the freebie on site, but had a site crash awhile back and have to wait until i get home to find and reference. VERY good ref though...


edit: Done; this was given out originally to share around unedited etc. i combined the 3 pdf's into 1 book like it was originally maid.
MTL: Archive/LifeOnALine-Volume_1-fullVersion.pdf

The new version of this is expanded and in color, but is not free. Life On A Line. Com After it came out, the sources for the original piece of work seem scarce.