Change Climbing Style? - Blakes to Knut

I've done many hours of research on this and I think I am ready to take it to the tree, but somebody check me out on it before I spend some money on new gear just to maybe bust my gluteus maximus (and assorted other posterior accoutrements).

Been climbing Traditional style on Blue Streak with an old Klein butt strap type belt with D rings on each side (no center D ring like the new saddles built for split tail climbing). I said something about trying a split tail system in a Sherril thread and Tom Dunlap suggested I try going to a Knut or Distel friction hitch instead of the Blakes. OK, I can tie the Knut (thanks to TreeSpyder for the knot links and pictures). But it looks like the "Closed" friction hitches are tied very close to the saddle, rather than a couple of feet up the way I am using the Blakes. That might mean a big change in my climbing style.

In my "Traditional" system my Blakes hitch is always above my hands on the way up, being pushed up by my left hand. Best I can tell from my reseach of previous threads and links to articles provided by TreeSpyder it looks like a split tail with a Knut would stay below my hands on the way up, except that maybe I would have to reach below the Knut to pull the climbing line through. Have I got this right?

Not sure I like the idea of my hands being above the friction hitch before I am ready to descend.

Anybody got a picture of an old style (butt strap, D rings on each side) saddle rigged with a Knut? Or, for that matter, any "Closed" style friction hitch (Distel, Knut, VT, French Prusik, Schwabisch).

It's how the loop is rigged in relation to the two side D rings that I am interested in. Close, or with a couple of feet of slack? Hands mostly above the friction hitch while climbing, or enough slack to keep the hands below the friction hitch (although that would defeat the purpose of the "Self Tending" Knut hitch and put 2 strands of rope up there instead of just 1).

I'll go get my rig out of the truck and put up a picture of what I am using now if it will help.

Yes, the hitch stays close and you reach above it to pull yourself up the rope. The best advanced friction hitches are self-tending, meaning the weight of the rope (or a gentle tug) will pretty much keep the rope dropping through and advancing the hitch. Your days of pushing the hitch up above your hands are over.

I prefer using a small pulley for tending my hitch. The first picture is an image of a Distel that changed my world, this was what opened the door for me into advanced hitches. There are two more pictures of a distel and the last picture is the double fisherman's (Somebody is bound to 'correct' me and start a stupid argument over the name) which is the knot used to attach the tres cord to your carabiner. I started out using 5/16" Sta-Set (a double braid polyester available at marine sources, Google it) but now use 3/8".

Self tending hitches are the way to go!! I use the Mitchoacan invented by Martin Morales. It is a great self tending hitch. If you wnt to use a Distel or any other advanced hitch you can always drop NickfromWI a line and have him splice you an extra long prussik cord!

Brian, Allow me- the noose knot commonly called a dble fisherman's on the web is properly called a scaffold knot or double overhand noose knot. The double fisherman's moniker is properly applied to a bend used for joining two lines which is formed by tying dbl overhand knots around the standing parts of each other l and letting them jam together.

i hope we mean 2 'side' D's are the ones coming off of Butt strap and not ribs?? Self tending/tended friction hitches are generally tied close to mount, to avail the self tending with very little play. On an older style/ 4 ring saddle, i think you can connect the 2 front/from butt strap D's to be as one with snap or carabiner. Hnds above friction hitch in an emergency can be bad, as your instinct is to grab the friction hitch it seems (thus descending); you must drill this instinct out. Pictures are always great help

What is "Mitchoacan invented by Martin Morales"?

Dr. Justin; i believe it was my turn and not yours to mess with Rocky??

Ken and Justin...you guys go ahead and set things straight. I'm going to sit this one out

Spyder. The Mitchoacan is a self tending hitch invented by Martin Morales a Mexican native born in the state of Mitchoacan. He didnt want this hitch named after him so he named it after where he was born. He is an instructor with Arbormaster in CA.

I have Pm'd you about this hitch over at TH in the past...you showed ZERO interest in it!

KC, My apologies. Please feel free to set both Brian and I straight. For some reason Tom is being reserved today.

If it's OK with you guys, I'm going to keep calling it a double fisherman's because that's how I learned it and it's also just about the same knot I use to tie a fishing hook on monofilament (but with 6 twists).

Please excuse the newbie here, can this(these) knots be used for both single rope and double rope techniques? or just double, taking place of the blake's/split tail?

TreeSpyder - yep, by "Side D's" I meant the ones on the butt strap. Got my flipline on the rib strap. And you nailed my fear of "Hands above the friction hitch". Been there. Done that. Didn't get a T shirt but I don't want one.

You can see from the picture I'll try to attach I've been tieing the D's together with my bowline. I've been reluctant to use a crab or a safety hook because I was afraid one of the D's might get on the gate. Had a hook gate break on a saw lanyard one time and dropped my 200T 30 feet. Soft ground. Good tough saw, Praise God. No, it wasn't a safety gate, but it made me think. The butt of that saw is a lot tougher than mine.

I know a lot of men use them; if someone could recomend one out of a catalog that was big enough or had enough bite to make me comfortable - probably a swivel hook - or - what about a screw link?

Skwerl - thanks for the picts. Have you ever attached one to a double D like I've got?

Yep, I would have called it a fishermans. Glad to be enlightened. Hope I can break the bad habit. Has anybody told Jeff Jepson about this? (TCC page 74)

Already PM'ed Nick about the spliced cord. I was going to cut a couple feet off my Blue Streak, but I simply cannot make myself do it. Then I was going to buy another section of rope from Sherrill just to cut up, but I know I wouldn't be able to make myself cut that either. Simply breaks my heart to make short pieces out of a nice long piece of rope.

Ready to buy a pulley and a hook or screw link also. Can anybody give me some numbers from a catalog? Sherrill, I presume?

Onelick - wellcome. Good article on this available through a link on TreeSpyder's web site - "An Overview of Climbing Hitches" by Mark Adams. Wish I could remember exactly how I found it, but maybe TheTreeSpyder can help. Been so many places researching this I get lost trying to re-find something.

Help set me straight. This knot shown above will advance with gravity of a rope hands free and will withstand a persons bodyweight without slipping?

The answer to my frustration.

Does it work well with the pantin or footlocking?

How would it work using a right and left hand ascender?

I am hoping this will reduce the strain on my holding arm while the other advanced the blakes hitch.

Also is this one that will require some playing to determine the right number of raps?

Plan on trying it tomorrow.

Fireaxman, if you're going to use that saddle and climbing system, why don't you get a locking snap and tie your bowline to the snap and then snap your d-rings together.

Fireaxman said:

Good article on this available through a link on TreeSpyder's web site - "An Overview of Climbing Hitches" by Mark Adams. Wish I could remember exactly how I found it,

Click to expand...

That article (and a LOT of other good ones) are at TreeBuzz...

http://www.treebuzz.com/articles.php

I have several printed out ("Slick Tricks" is a good one, too) and work my through them periodically.

Dan, are they still talking about double rope with these hitches, correct?
Onelick

yes, doubled rope.

yes, and I started to mention that, but I was trying to stick with the topic at hand without getting off on a side tangent. I'll use the hitch as a backup to the ascender on a single rope. It will hold me without letting me fall, but it would be very difficult to work if all my weight were to be on it.

Redbull -

Fireaxman said:

I've been reluctant to use a crab or a safety hook because I was afraid one of the D's might get on the gate.

Click to expand...

I said "safety hook" thinking "Locking Snap". Just don't like to put anything but a streight pull on anything with a gate. Shell Offshore Safety Standards. Yeah, we were pulling tons, not pounds, but old habits die hard. And my little 170 pounds are just as important to me as compressor packages were to Shell.

Still, if you guys tell me a locking snap is good enough, I'll go with it. Which one to buy not to have to worry about a D ring twisting it's way out of the gate? Does a 6" swivel locking snap have enough bite to keep those D rings from getting on the gate? There is a 9 and 7/8" locking spreader snap that would meet my construction foreman guidelines for a man lift (streight pull on the hooks, or pull opposite the gate), but I'll bet it's big time overkill. And $40+. What brand / size locking snap do you use?

PTS - that's what got me interested. Somebody more experienced with it than I will have to answer your questions definetively, but from what I saw researching old threads and magazine articles it looks pretty good. Skwerl tells me it may need a little tug on the tail to advance, but not much. I played with it with hardware store rope enough to make me want to try it. I'm thinking it should be great for foot locking or pantin.

i believe that by the mechanical construction, a bowline is meant to be loaded straight down/inline with standing part; and not being spread apart/pulls perpendicular to the standing part. Pulls/loads crosswise to the standing part (such as D's pulling apart) would perhaps be better served by a Spanish Bowline; typically described as being 'splayed' apart. The mechanics of it and to some extent a jacked bowline are more conducive to properly setting their securing locks by pulls more perpendicular than inline with the standing part. Sherrill's button lock seems popular krab. i think i'll let Tom give notice on how bowline for krab as life support is being left behind. It should still be allowable for snaps i think. Follow Sherrill's listing on safe snaps too.

i have my Knot Links Page that in the first slots for the climber's section links to the riches of the TreeBuzz Articles Section; that includes both of Mark's published articles; as well as some other familiar names now published ya might meet on these boreds.

Nothing tends quite as well as the mechanical tenders (key chain krab, dog chain snap {painted pink is best i hear} or micropulley etc.) all the time. But the Knut and it's marl instead of half hitch version the TK; Icicle Hitch, as well as some VT versions with a Knut type finish; offer some self tending capabilities for pretty far when properly dressed/redressed. Of course sliding even smoother with mechanical tender on occasion applied to them. Pantin etc. work well with these, as a Blake's with short bridge and mechanical tender should if tuned right for trip? Some even get Blake's to self tend. Impacting will raise tension in friction hitch, and get it tighter/seizing so must be redressed s/lightly. So will hanging at angle on line; if you are hanging straight down with flow of gravity, you might use only 20' of line. But, hanging at an angle you might use 25' of line for same distance down (just angled). The same distance down with the force of gravity achieved with more loaded rope, is like longer wrench under same load for same werk: more leveraged i think, for over tightening your friction hitch!

i think in general the set of hitches we speak of will ascend on SRT, in a move and secure/ ratcheting sequence, but not descend. i think to descend, the hitch has to unload, and can't do that on SRT. But, our DdRT offers another leg of support, as we slide the hitch it unloads, and the other leg of support takes the load to allow the hitch side to unload; just like the hitch line was stretching, failing or being lowered; the other line magically takes the load. i think that is also why a 1" bight is allowed on FS; when any other time a 2" bight on such a turn would be mandated; the loading jumps across to the other leg of support, not cranking the force so much around the turn(?) through rings etc.

i think the basic construction of these newer/prusik/ coil pulled from 2 ends type friction hitches is 4 turns/ coil (1 is turn, 2 is round turn, 3 double round turn, 4 is coil) which can hold too well/seize. But a simple turn can give some grip and still slip; giving more safety and still slide. So we devise different strategies and names to place a single turn under the coil(to precede in loading), to give grip that will still slip; this reduces load to 4 turns/coil, and keeps it in more of it's manageable/ non-siezeing/ friendly powerband of performance. Place the last/lower hitch one way with half hitch maid under coil from leg of top turn, it is Distel, the other way it is Shwab, make it from bottom of coil it is Knut(with leg from top of coil reeving through), TK similar, Icicle tending from bottom turn as hitch strategy as well with leg from top turn reeving thru(characteristic of the self tenders i think), etc.

The hitches pull in basket rather than single, linear leg of pull/support like Tautline and Blake's. So, instead of cutting lines for tails like Blake's or Tautline daze, we get smaller diameter cord like mountain, rescue and tactical all use. A smaller diameter grips the host line better(and leverages the line used fro friction hitch on such a small bight/turn less to preserve more tensile strength as it also grips better), and the 2 leg basket position of attachment is stronger use of tail/cord device than the single leg attatchmeant varieties; so is allowed. VT family a lil'different in that it gives a gauntlet of bends in the host embracing sock of turns preceding/under the coil on top, to take the main loading off of the coil.

A Blake's actually more like these prusiks than it is like Tautline, even though they are both single leg attatchmeant strategies. In that Blake's is an uninterrupted 4turn/ coil set as base mechanics (tautline is 2 seperate roundturns laced like clove), Blakes single leg does pull from the bottom of the coil, but lays across the seized (by anchor hitch type of strategy) on one end leg to top of coil. So the top turn gets pulled on as leg you hang from presses down on it as it laces to bottom of coil(and pulls on top coil at same time!). The Blake's doesn't precede the coil with half hitch, but instead interrupts full grip of the first 2/ most loaded turns to tame coil from seizing. So, you have really been hanging on this prussik type of strategy in some ways; with only 1 leg of support instead of 2, if you are using Blake's!

i've kinda gone with double noose as name for the eyes we secure to saddle with. But that is when i tie like an anchor to self/ with a round turn and not a crossed turn. i wonder if the crossed turn strategy for same deserves another name etc.

As far as being upstaged by someone 2x my size; i guess i've groan used to it(almost); but i still want my turn!