stump grinder vs brush chipper

TreeGhost said:

I would have to make multiple trips just to take the chipper to the job plus pick-up the wood. If my jobs were drop and go then I would want a chipper. As long as I am taking the wood home to burn in the stove I may as well just add a load of brush to the top. I never stack the brush. I cut it and load it. So far it has worked great for me.

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Well, of course! I was not trying to refute your operation, I was trying to respond to the original question posted by Great Feller.

So many of us on this forum don't seem to understand that there are more ways to run a tree business than the way they happen to run theirs.

6" vermeer

I had a 6" vermeer, nice chipper. You have to side trim alot though and they are very top heavy. (Don't ask how I know). I now have a BC1000 (12''). Thats the way to go in my opinion. Excellent chipper, big opening 12"x17" and lots of power. When you have to take down a pine or spruce or willow you will wish you had the 12". The 12" is alot heavier though (5,000 lbs vs 2'000 for the 6").I also have a grinder SC252. But it gets used about 1/10th the time the chipper does. The chipper is the big money maker. Alot of the times you don't even need to haul away the chips because homeowners use them. So get the chipper and think about bigger than a 6". Just my 2c's...... Mike

pdqdl said:

Well, of course! I was not trying to refute your operation, I was trying to respond to the original question posted by Great Feller.

So many of us on this forum don't seem to understand that there are more ways to run a tree business than the way they happen to run theirs.

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Thats the great thing about this site, so many different skills and abilitys from working in different environments. Yet if any of us worked in others cities we would have probably have to rethink the gear we have and the way we do things.

The Vermeer 6's have an average at best reputation. But then there have been some downright terrible examples of brand new brush bandit 65's and 9 inchers being built majorly incorrectly and brush bandit doing dodgy patch ups to get them out the door and not coming to the game when the problems became evident within a dozen hours of ownership.
But many people have great runs with both.
If you can get a great deal on the vermeer, do it. Most of the time any working chipper is better than no chipper by miles. Size just depends on your budget, type of work, way you operate, cost or demand for firewood locally, volume of work, number of guys in your crew, size of your truck, access and price of dumping, job access, parking availability, commute distances, maintaince issues, size of your own property, scope of potential work, private demand for chips, your equipment and space for handling mulch etc etc etc.

Wow I'm impressed with all the replies! I take it I need to get a chipper first. Just a little FYI I cut and bend all of the 2" red safety tubes on all Vermeer brush chippers. So do you guys think Vermeer equipment sucks? It kinda seems that way. I know it's expensive stuff.

Right now I have a Zr2 s-10, a small trailer (3500lb axle), a 4 wheeler and a couple chainsaws. I think the guys on here have talked me into getting the Stihl pole saw. It's expensive. Can I incorporate a brush chipper with what I have? I mean, most tree service companies I've seen have a covered truck with the chipper positioned to blow chips in. Would my s-10 work with a vermeer 600 or am I looking at buying another truck?

Lastly, where the heck can I get some affordable general liability insurance? Also, will I need any kind of a permit or license to do felling/trimming within city limits? You have to have a license to take a crap these days.

The bigger vermeers tend to be good, but the 6 inch just isnt all it could be.

TimberMcPherson said:

The bigger vermeers tend to be good, but the 6 inch just isnt all it could be.

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We've got about 450 hours on our newer Vermeer 625B (the old one had about 200 hours before it was stolen.) and while it never fails to work, I agree it's not perfect. The little puppy needs servicing and TLC. But when it does works well, it is the perfect match between power and portability. If our F350 dumper is being used, we slap the 625 behind my buddy's F150 or the boss's F250 and chip right into the box. Throw the wood on top and you're off. You can handle a decent sized job like that. A very flexible setup.

I have come across 2 6 inch vermeers that have torn up the shafts after the bearings have come loose. But my gravely has done the same!

Its a shame you guys dont get the hansa chippers over there, they are the best 6 inch chippers I have come across. Im saving hard for one at the moment!

I have one last comment: buy the biggest chipper your truck can pull. If that means ponying up the money for a 9" instead of a 6": do it ! You won't regret it.

My Bandit 200xp (12" capacity) can be towed by any decent one ton truck, and it will do so much more than any 6" or 9" chipper. I would recommend making sure the trailer brakes are working right if you will pull it with a lighter truck. When you get into wood that doesn't feed well like mulberry trees, the bigger throat makes a HUGE difference.

Sometimes I wish I had the 250, they have given that model a really big throat. That'll be next...

Great Feller said:

....

Right now I have a Zr2 s-10, a small trailer (3500lb axle), a 4 wheeler and a couple chainsaws. I think the guys on here have talked me into getting the Stihl pole saw. It's expensive. Can I incorporate a brush chipper with what I have? I mean, most tree service companies I've seen have a covered truck with the chipper positioned to blow chips in. Would my s-10 work with a vermeer 600 or am I looking at buying another truck?

Lastly, where the heck can I get some affordable general liability insurance? Also, will I need any kind of a permit or license to do felling/trimming within city limits? You have to have a license to take a crap these days.

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If you are getting by right now without the pole saw, you will do better to get a chipper. Take a 20' ladder, a decent pole pruner with an additional saw attachment, and you will be better set up than with just the gas powered saw. Get the basics before you buy the luxuries. You will be able to do just as much work. For less money invested.

Are you doing this full time ? In an s-10? Get a bigger truck! Nothing less than a decent one ton with a dump bed. Then build a cheap wooden chip box on it, get a decent used chipper as big as you can pull safely, and go make some real money. You will only be sorry if you buy junk or if you can't sell enough work to make it worthwhile. Keep the s-10 for doing bids and errands. I wouldn't think of getting a chipper until I had a box to shoot chips into.

An s-10 can't haul enough wood/weight to use profitably unless you are really banking your customers on a bunch of small jobs. In which case, you should be able to afford a bigger truck anyway.

Insurance: call everybody, take quotes.

pdqdl said:

I have one last comment: buy the biggest chipper your truck can pull. If that means ponying up the money for a 9" instead of a 6": do it ! You won't regret it.

My Bandit 200xp (12" capacity) can be towed by any decent one ton truck, and it will do so much more than any 6" of 9" chipper. I would recommend making sure the trailer brakes are working right if you will pull it with a lighter truck. When you get into wood that doesn't feed well like mulberry trees, the bigger throat makes a HUGE difference.

Sometimes I wish I had the 250, they have given that model a really big throat. That'll be next...

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I just recently got my hands on a 250 with all the options available and the JD 125. I was still using my 200+ with the 76 hp cummings. I knew it would be easier and less headaches without all the trimming, but I didnt expect to be that much faster-and more profitable. Of course my 200 is 18 years old.

I am just so spoiled with the 1890 w/ downforce.
I know how to make cuts to get anything to feed into any chipper but gaddamn that downforce makes life easy. Full trees and leaders getting fed by the bobcat or winch needing minimal cutting. A little jiggle of the handle and in it goes.Obviously I dont own my own 75 thousand dollar chipper though

First off, the ABSOLUTE minimum id wanna chip into is a 3/4 ton pickup with dump insert. You can make a plywood chip box in a pickup bed and lay a tarp so you can tie it to a tree and drive off to "dump" , then pull the tarp out with the truck but its a hassle x10. A downeaster dump insert with sideboards and either a plywood roof or a mesh tarp for a roof is a good startup setup.

A one ton dump is KEY.

A 6" chipper isnt my idea of a good time. But it beats stacking brush x1000

The biggest chipper you can afford, plus the magic lever ...yoke lift/downforce.

I'm running out of cash guys. My goal is to have 0 loans for this business. I'm going to start small. The s10 is all I have for now. I know it will pull a trailer with a stumpgrinder on it..... it doesn't sound like it will work with a chipper though. I think having a grinder would be pretty handy since a lot of homeowners can cut down there own trees but they can't grind a stump away. That's where I can come in.

On a side note, bought a stihl ht131 pruning saw today... I guess I got a deal? I drove 30 miles one way to buy this thing. Get to the store and he took it in back and started. I heard him fire it up like 4-5 times. Then he came out and said he wasn't going to give it to me... Something about it wouldn't idle right. I was like,,, are you kidding me!!!! He said he'd order another one. So I went home empty handed. I called the store back and said I wasn't interested anymore unless he'd work out a deal. He said after I left he looked at it and it was something minor with the throttle cable. I said I don't know. Then he said he'd throw in 2 chains, 6 pack of oil, and take 10% off. That's what I'm talking about. Good dealer support. Total cost with tax $625.94. I'm going to the dealers house tomorrow morning to pick it up.

The advice your getting from all these experienced arborists is all good, if your working the same as the guys that are giving it.

You have to work out yourself whats going to work for you.The vermeer 6 will probably serve you well enough as a first chipper, I started by loading a trailer and it took 3 years before I could afford a second hand 6 which I still use, I am upgrading to another 6 over anything bigger BUT I dont work where you are, so I might be completely off key.

Dont go nuts buying gear, theres PLENTY of time and money for that later. Get in with the basics and see what you need as you get into work. If you need to rent a chipper for a while to see what suits, by all means do it so you know what works, its far cheaper renting wrong than buying wrong.

Any bit of gear is infinitely valuable or worthless depending on if you can get good use from it and if you have the work to justify it.

Good luck mate, it can be tough out there. Basics first.

Groundman One said:

But then you need a grapple truck and a dump truck to deal with branches, on top of the truck you're already using to get to the job. That's a lot of trucks and gas and manpower and wages and logistics.

We have an F350 with a covered dumper on the back pulling a 6" Vermeer. Two of us can A to Z a pretty respectable job in a day. It's the basic setup most companies have here. Inexpensive (so to speak) simple upkeep, easy parking, versatile enough to handle 90%+ of all jobs.

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Having chipped mountains of brush until buying my grapple
no looking back and I do mean back sore, back up, back over?
My grapple has it's own dump bed eighteen foot by six foot sides
and can pack all I put on the ground in a day into one load most days.
I will not be sweaty,I will not dull many chains, I will not have to unhook
chipper and dump, I will not have to cut the logs into cookies. I will do
any job twice as fast and be twice as fresh after the day as someone
chipping with any chipper other than a grapple fed whole tree. I do
chip with my whisper for chits and giggles and small jobs but removals
the Mack is on the road.

gr8scott72 said:

I only know of one tree company here that DOES have a chipper. All the others just use either a grapple truck or a bobcat to load a dump truck and load ALL the wood AND brush and take it to the dump.

It might have something to do with what you plan on doing with the wood. No one around here really uses it for firewood so it's easier to just load all of it and dump it.

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The question of 'chipper or stumper' can only be answered by each business owner. The advice on this forum is great but, each owner/operator has to understand his own market and figure out how to best meet the needs of that market.

I have gone back and forth between chippers and dump trailers for the past 20+ years. Which one I use primarily depends on whether or not I have a place to dispose of the logs and brush and if I have to pay for it. If I do most of my work within a relatively short distance of my disposal site and can dump brush/logs for free, then I really have no justification for the cost and maintenance of a chipper. However, if I have to drive a longer distance and have to pay for disposal of debris but can give chips away for free, well then, the decision to get a chipper gets a lot easier.

That is the position I am in right now. With my mini skid loader and dump trailer, I can clean up logs and brush much faster than I can with a chipper; however, I am having to pay for dumping the debris at the local landfill. When I sit down and crunch the numbers, the chipper will save me trips to the dump (time and fuel) and dump fees. The cost of buying/maintaining teh chipper will come out slightly ahead of using the dump trailer so, I'm justified in making the purchase. If, however, I could find a rural lot close by to dump/burn brush and logs, I would not buy a chipper. For me, hauling with a dump trailer would be more economical. I can say this because I have the numbers to back up my reasoning through careful record keeping.

Now, back to the question of 'chipper vs stumper'. If you don't need a chipper because you have a free site to dump/burn debris and your market area does not require a lot of long-distance travel from that disposal point, then don't buy either a grinder or a chipper - instead - buy a dump trailer and bigger pickup. (Either way, get a bigger truck- something with a dump on it) My 2 cents...

Great post Arborpro! You bring up one other thing to consider and that is the versatility and timesaving abilities of a miniskidsteer. Ideally a dump trailer and a mini with a grapple would be a great way to run a small one/two man tree business keeping in mind the other variables you brought up regarding disposal/dump fees/distance to haul woody debris. Why even buy a stump grinder? The Toro Dingos have a stump grinder PTO attachment and several other attachments to help grow your business in other treecare-related jobs.

In many areas it is illegal to bring home brush and burn it. You might want to check with DHEC or environmental services before you go that route.

TreeCo said:

I just can't imagine doing tree work without a chipper! (50% of my work is pruning)

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90% of my work is pruning; yet, I would gladly operate without a chipper if I had a free place to dispose/burn brush closeby my market area. As I do not have such a location at my disposal, I am forced to buy a chipper because it will be more economical than driving 10miles one-way to the landfill each time my dump trailer is full of branches. I love chippers (as I do all tree care equipment); however, for smaller operations, there is a definite downsight to owning/operating equipment - MAINTENANCE! I would rather operate with a low-maintenance dump trailer than with a chipper. That said, sometimes equipment is necessary - you just have to run the numbers and use your past experience and business records to justify each equipment purchase. While one tree guy might be able to make a profit off of using a chipper, another might actually lose money using one. I've been in both positions and keep changing my equipment lineup as my market and business needs change.

There is no perfect equipment and labor setup for all arborist/landscapers/contractors, etc. Everyone has to figure out his or her market, his or her overhead and apply those factors towards deciding which equipment will bring a higher net profit at the end of the year. Mind you, I said NET profit, not GROSS - the number that far too many guys get hung up on when deciding what equipment is needed. If a chipper costs you more in bank payments, maintenance, operating costs and depreciation than running a dump trailer and pickup would (taking into consideration, of course, extra drive time to dump debris and extra fuel for that drive time) you'd be better off just running a dump trailer and pickup. If you can show the numbers that justify the chipper purchase, then let the numbers speak for themselves but, don't go buying a chipper just because someone else says he couldn't operate HIS business without one. Is your business EXACTLY the same as his...?

Easy way to crunch the numbers is extimate how much time, disposal fees and fuel you will save by operting a chipper vs running dump trailer loads to a landfill. Then figure out what your annual operating cost will be for a chipper including bank payments, maintenance, fuel, depreciation, etc. If the chipper doesn't make you money over running the dump trailer, then you have to decide just how badly you want another toy to maintain - because, if it's not making you money in the long run, then it's just another big boy toy and it's not so much a business justification for buying one as it is personal gratification...

arbor pro: You are right on target about equipment utilization. I just want to refine your argument a little bit.

Bank payments affect your cash flow, but have no real difference on profits. That is where depreciation comes into the formula. Unfortunately, most tree trimmers aren't too good at accounting, so you get a merging/mish-mash of accounting concepts on whether or not a company is making money.

The funny thing is, you can go broke and be forced out of business while making a handsome profit. And you can be loosing money all year long, while having spare cash to throw away on more tree toys. These are two concepts that are completely different: Cash flow (how much $$ you have in the bank) and profits (how much money you owe taxes on).

Most guys will do well to work on the cash flow concept: add up the money you spend to operate a machine. Subtract the money you save while using it. If you have more (theoretical) money after you bought it than you did before you got the machine, it's probably a good idea.

TreeCo said:

I just can't imagine doing tree work without a chipper! (50% of my work is pruning)



You can line up stump removals and then rent a stumper and go at it. It's not quite as easy to leave brush piles sitting for any length of time waiting to rent a chipper.

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Tree co areas differ greatly I would starve pruning here. What many
of you make for good pruning is a tricky removal in this neck of the woods.
I do mostly dead and dangerous takedowns here, the pruning ends up
going to illegal landscapers & hacks mostly. I am too high on my trimming
to sell much of it.