Untying knots

i know i'm a newbie but...

i've been lurking for awhile and i figured i'd jump on this thread. i work on boats quite a bit and when i know that a bowline is going to be under tons of stress i tie what i've always known as a swedish bowline. i tried searching for a pic, but i couldn't find one. i'll try to take a pic of one and post it, but for me it's easiest to tie it by making a clove hitch and then passing the bitter end of the rope through it as a typical bowline would be tied. then, spread out the two loops of the clove hitch to spread the load on the line. i know it probably makes no sense, but i'll try to get a pic posted. thanks for the site, it's great to be here!

Blewgrass, welcome to the site.

Interesting variation of the bowline. I wonder if any tests have been done to see how they compare to the standard bowline?

Video of the swedish bowline. It's at the end.

As far as i know a Swedish Bowline to me, is a Water Bowline; the your prescription sounds slightly different. But then the water use too..

Mostly i prefer a DBY or Double Bowline with a Yosemite Tie Off. This is where instead of just a Turn maid for the Half Hitch, you make a Round Turn. This will cause the same bend in the Standing; but over a longer distance (so less impacting change). Then the Yosemite Tie Off as shown by JP(which also leaves a clean, more serviceable eye IMLHO). This also presents more security in the Round Turn (and in Yosemite too). But in stiffer lines, the 2nd tier can werk against ye, by giving a higher leverage pull point to invert!! A Swedish(?)/Water Bowline would have a Clove Instead of the Turn/Round Turn that is powered by the Standing tension to bite 2x on the bight in Bitters. Both i think are easier maid with Slip Knot Method(as above). This should be Jacked if using in retrievable Bowline for like floating a pulley. Whereby, in a normal Bowline the locking pulls are inline to the length of the line, in the retrievable the locking pulls are across the length of the line (so for reverse forces, use reverse mechanics..)

A Butterfly(flash) can jam, but mostly when you load just 1 end to the eye, or eye more or first IMLHO. i think by construction, a Butterfly(page) should be loaded end to end, pulling evenly one these legs, and leaving the eye as an isolated/injured part of line. Now we can pull from that eye too, but point is that the end legs should be loaded first and most. Which gives sum theoretical problems with 3:1 jig, but at least then there is some loading pulling to the legs to create the proper tensions.

Knots pounded or pryed apart; should make that rope more questionable; especially when stiff or deformed parts result. Softer is better, and perhaps prying with marlin type spikes best.

thanks for the video ghillie. yeah, that's it at about 2:13 in the video.

Hey Look Kenny's back!

Hi Kenny!

I find singing " If I Had A Hammer" whilst I beat my 400 dollar bullrope to a pulp works well.
The Dan's midline anchor knot of choice? Why the clove of course! Like John said" It all in how you dress it"
But really folks don't abide by what I do, The butterfly is for you.

2FatGuys said:

We use any convenient piece of wood when we add a "peg" to the knot. But choosing the right knots is a better solution, rather than "pegging" an incorrect knot. If the peg comes out, there is a greater chance of failure from shock loading the knot.

Click to expand...

They make a smooth metal " bone" to use in place of the stick which, by the way, I have long since abandoned. I use sticks to cook hot dogs in the clients chimnea. One of the groundies doubles as " cookie" and he starts the fire at a quarter to 12. One time he set the clients glass coffee pot on fire, it was real cold out and he was trying to keep it hot.

My brother, my friend, i hope all is well with ye and y'ours;
Is it cold enough up thar (of course i'm speaking geographically) yet for ya?

TheTreeSpyder said:

As far as i know a Swedish Bowline to me, is a Water Bowline; the your prescription sounds slightly different. But then the water use too..

Mostly i prefer a DBY or Double Bowline with a Yosemite Tie Off. This is where instead of just a Turn maid for the Half Hitch, you make a Round Turn. This will cause the same bend in the Standing; but over a longer distance (so less impacting change). Then the Yosemite Tie Off as shown by JP(which also leaves a clean, more serviceable eye IMLHO). This also presents more security in the Round Turn (and in Yosemite too). But in stiffer lines, the 2nd tier can werk against ye, by giving a higher leverage pull point to invert!! A Swedish(?)/Water Bowline would have a Clove Instead of the Turn/Round Turn that is powered by the Standing tension to bite 2x on the bight in Bitters. Both i think are easier maid with Slip Knot Method(as above). This should be Jacked if using in retrievable Bowline for like floating a pulley. Whereby, in a normal Bowline the locking pulls are inline to the length of the line, in the retrievable the locking pulls are across the length of the line (so for reverse forces, use reverse mechanics..)

A Butterfly(flash) can jam, but mostly when you load just 1 end to the eye, or eye more or first IMLHO. i think by construction, a Butterfly(page) should be loaded end to end, pulling evenly one these legs, and leaving the eye as an isolated/injured part of line. Now we can pull from that eye too, but point is that the end legs should be loaded first and most. Which gives sum theoretical problems with 3:1 jig, but at least then there is some loading pulling to the legs to create the proper tensions.

Knots pounded or pryed apart; should make that rope more questionable; especially when stiff or deformed parts result. Softer is better, and perhaps prying with marlin type spikes best.

Click to expand...

I agree with the correct loading order on the butterfly. A knot isn't tied untill it is correctly dressed.

Anytime I need to use pliers or pound a knot to get it apart, I consider the rope for utility use only (downgrade it).

Be safe,

Fred

BOAB sure is a great midline knot. You've just got to make sure you dress it good. I use it all the time, and comes undone really good under excessive loads.

The best midline knot I have found

When I was in Boy Scouts, an advanced course I was in at camp taught us the "pioneer knot", which was supposedly used by the pioneers to create a midline knot to use as a pulley to haul loads.

I use this for all mid-line knots to pull a load. It holds well in all directions, but like the bowline, can fail if not set correctly. It ties in about 10 seconds without even hurrying, so it is very easy to make.

I have tried to find this knot on-line any number of times, but so far I have been unsuccessful. I even bought the Ashley book of knots to find this one, and so far I haven't located it in the book.

It's big advantage is that it holds well in all directions, is very easy to tie, and does NOT bind up when loaded. I will look for this knot one more time, and if I can't find it anywhere, I'll make my own video. Maybe someone will know this knot by another name.

Verbally, here is how to tie:

1. form a vertical loop with 1/2 twist.
2. flop it down, so that you are holding both free ends out either hand, with a perfect "pretzl" shaped loop between your hands.
3. Take the bottom of the "pretzl" and pull it up through one ear of the "pretzl". Only one ear will work, the other will become no knot at all.
4. Pull the loop out, snug it up, and use with confidance.

pdqdl said:

When I was in Boy Scouts, an advanced course I was in at camp taught us the "pioneer knot", which was supposedly used by the pioneers to create a midline knot to use as a pulley to haul loads.

I use this for all mid-line knots to pull a load. It holds well in all directions, but like the bowline, can fail if not set correctly. It ties in about 10 seconds without even hurrying, so it is very easy to make.

I have tried to find this knot on-line any number of times, but so far I have been unsuccessful. I even bought the Ashley book of knots to find this one, and so far I haven't located it in the book.

It's big advantage is that it holds well in all directions, is very easy to tie, and does NOT bind up when loaded. I will look for this knot one more time, and if I can't find it anywhere, I'll make my own video. Maybe someone will know this knot by another name.

Verbally, here is how to tie:

1. form a vertical loop with 1/2 twist.
2. flop it down, so that you are holding both free ends out either hand, with a perfect "pretzl" shaped loop between your hands.
3. Take the bottom of the "pretzl" and pull it up through one ear of the "pretzl". Only one ear will work, the other will become no knot at all.
4. Pull the loop out, snug it up, and use with confidance.

Click to expand...

Is this it?

No, but that looks like a dandy knot also. Looks like it might become tough to untie.

Working on some pics. Will post shortly.

Pioneer knot: does anyone know this by another name?

As described prevously, here is my "mid-line" knot for attaching loads in the middle of a rope.

While it does not slide down and fail, if both free ends of the knot are pulled without any load on the loop, it does unroll itself a bit. If the knot was cycled several times between loaded "ends only 180 degrees apart" and "loaded loop with both ends held together", it would eventually walk down to "no loop left".

But it is great for ease of untieing and not failing with a load on the loop.

1. Form a loop with the working end on top.
2. Continue with the working end passing under the loop just formed.
3. Hold the working end in place and grasp the right side of the loop and bring it under the working end and over the other (left) side of the loop. As you pull it out of the original loop it will then form the new loop of the knot.
4. Work the knot tight and then pull firmly on the loop to set the knot in place.
5. Note that if a larger loop is desired, start the knot with a larger original loop.

EDIT 2022: this knot is best known as the "manharness" knot, as it was used by military toops to rig many men to a single rope to haul heavy equipment through difficult terrain. Also, known as the Artilleryman's loop knot, as seen in the pics above. This post was so old, ArbSite lost my original pictures.

i know many knots, but i ain't never seen the pioneer knot. will have to tie it and see how i like it.

That's great

I have a couple books I looked through and have not found it. Thanks though it looks like a great knot.

Found it!

Manharness loop, harness loop or artillery loop.

#8 here.

Good thing I read treespyder's sig, it would have drove me nuts!

Speaking of knots. My crew recently pulled over a 40+ inch american beech with 4 pulleys hooked up to give us extra power and I talked a guy into using a zeplin bend instead of a triple sheet bend to tie two rigging lines together (obviously the bend didn't have to run through the pulleys). When we finished he walked up to the zeplin bend and the two ropes came apart as easy as could be, he was shocked. It's not very well known, but it's a handy knot to know, as long as you're using two ropes the same diameter.

Ghillie, you got it!

Apparently, I need to read my Ashley's book of knots a little closer; the site you referenced says it is ABOK #1050.

I haven't any experience with the alpine butterfly, I have been using the Pioneer/manharness knot since before I owned a chainsaw. I'll have to experiment.

Great thread.