Can you give your opinion on this client's tree? PLEASE!

wecuttrees · Sep 30, 2009

Hey yall!

A client of mine has an oak in her back yard that she says is 85+ years old.

The tree is located in Atlanta GA so it is hot and humid.

A year ago she noticed some yellow "ooze" comming from the trunk/bark. She called a "tree guy" (non-certified) to come out and treat this area.

From her description, she said that he "removed" bark and then applied spray-kote.

Bassed off the photos, I am assuming that there was some decaying material in the affected area with loose bark. I am assuming that he removed the bark in order to clean the edges for them to heal.

I am planning on visiting the site by sunday, but before I do, I wanted to ask:

1. In your opinion, how long is this tree "safe".

2. Does anyone know of a proven method to inhibit decay in a humid climate.

I do not focus on PHC so when situations like this come up, more opinions are better.

I personally think that the tree is safe for 2 years. From 2-5 years I would guess that the decay may be starting to get "sketchy", and from 5-10 years it would be starting to get into the dangerous time frame. Past 10 years it would definatly be dangerous.

These approxomations are only based of personal observations of decay rate in this climate.

I am going to copy the client on this post as well.

Anyone have any thoughts?

http://s590.photobucket.com/albums/ss342/wecuttrees/ga totten tree/?action=view&current=tree3.jpg

http://s590.photobucket.com/albums/ss342/wecuttrees/ga totten tree/?action=view&current=tree2.jpg

Thanks yall

Mark

blewgrass · Sep 30, 2009

tough to say. It might compartmentalize and nothing may come of the damage, but it might also die tomorrow. a certified pathologist/arborist can look and see if there are any fungi developing because of/ inside of the wounded area and give a better prognosis. Pictures of the crown would help some. Epicormic branching and die back in the canopy will tell quite a bit about the overall health.

Dadatwins · Sep 30, 2009

Could be some old construction damage. There is some callous tissue developing on one side can't see the other sides. paint was probably not a good idea, it locks the moisture in and can accelerate the decay. Need to determine how much of the bark is still attached and living, looks like a dead column heading up in the center. need to see canopy to see what is going with leaves. Be careful labelling a tree as SAFE, you can offer your opinion and some treatment options, but labeling a tree as SAFE is dangerous ground.

wecuttrees · Sep 30, 2009

Dadatwins said:
Could be some old construction damage. There is some callous tissue developing on one side can't see the other sides. paint was probably not a good idea, it locks the moisture in and can accelerate the decay. Need to determine how much of the bark is still attached and living, looks like a dead column heading up in the center. need to see canopy to see what is going with leaves. Be careful labelling a tree as SAFE, you can offer your opinion and some treatment options, but labeling a tree as SAFE is dangerous ground.

\

Yeah, I thought about that when I said it. I know it is dangerous ground. She (the client) is following this thread as well.

So to be on the record, I agree. It is only an opinion. I would certainly never guarantee/warrant a tree's structural stability with the canker that it has.

Thanks for the check!
:greenchainsaw:

wecuttrees · Oct 1, 2009

does any one else have any thoughts (bump)

Can any one else give opinions on this tree?

I will have some hd video of it up soon.

Mark

BC WetCoast · Oct 1, 2009

That decay face looks soft to me, but it may just be my eye. If you can do some increment boring to determine the strength of the wood in the center of the tree and how thick the shell outside the compartmentalization zone is. Rule of thumb is 2" of shell thickness for each 6" of diameter (because you have an opening). Tough to tell scale from the picture, but if the tree is 36" in diameter then you need a 12" shell.

Any mushrooms around the base of the tree?

Providing you have enough shell thickness now, I would say your time estimates are conservative.

What are the targets?

Are there any other problems in the crown?

As an aside, it is very dangerous to use the term safe, because you are making an assessment on things you can't see and can't do destructive sampling. Also there are external forces such as wind and rain you can't account for. Most tree risk assessments use terms such as low, med and high risk. This accounts for the probability of the tree (or part of the tree) failing and any potential target for that tree or part failing. Also by giving the tree a risk rating, you are then putting the decision back on the decision maker (homeowner). The HO can then make a decision what to do based on your information. By saying the tree is 'safe' you essentially have made the decision.

treeseer · Oct 1, 2009

BC WetCoast said:
Rule of thumb is 2" of shell thickness for each 6" of diameter (because you have an opening). Tough to tell scale from the picture, but if the tree is 36" in diameter then you need a 12" shell. .

with all due respect that formula is crapola. before drilling or coring maybe diagnosis should occur...prognosis can be made without drilling.

BC WetCoast · Oct 2, 2009

treeseer said:
with all due respect that formula is crapola. before drilling or coring maybe diagnosis should occur...prognosis can be made without drilling.

Fair enough, I called it a rule of thumb, but actually got it out of the Urban Tree Risk Management Handbook (Chapter 3) put out by the US Forest Service. The formula is used by other jurisdictions.

I tried to give him some simple parameters to work off of. There are other models. For example, the Pac Northwest ISA chapter has developed a rating scheme to assess hazardous trees. Points are given:

Probability of failure - up to 5 points
Target Rating - up to 4 points
Size of defective part - up to 3 points

Low Risk 3-5 points No concern for many years
Moderate risk 4-8 points Problems not expected for 1(8 pts) year to 10 (4pts) years
High Risk 9-11 points 8-10 pts actions required in months 11pts action required in weeks

Extreme risk 12 points Action required now

Just seeing one picture of the tree, my guess is the tree would be rated between a 7 and 9 but it would have to be assessed on the ground to get a definitive rating.

There is talk about having the entire ISA adopt this system as the tree risk assessment model. Shell thickness is one of the parameters used in determining probability of failure.

http://www.pnwisa.org/media/pdfs/TRACEBulletin.pdf

John Paul Sanborn · Oct 2, 2009

Tough to say with only one side.

how does the species compartmentalize in the regions?

the flair looks healthy, and as stated above it looks like the tree is putting on woundwood. I've cut into oak and hickory where similar decay courts are just facile.

there does look to be some frass accumulation that would be indicative of ants active in the decay.

I would thump the tree with a mallet to see how it sounds, probe the decay. I've heard of new age tree doctoring where the decay is dug out and a fungicide is painted on. I would want to see consistent results before i charged for something like that. First I saw the method spoke of was for armilaria, now I've heard it for open decay courts.

I might throw a line into the tree and pull it to see here the axis of bent is, this wound does not look to be in the hot-spot yet.

Quite often my assessment is that the wound moderately elevates risk, since any tree can fail under the wrong conditions. The wound probably will reduce the Serviceable useful Life Expectancy of the tree so the client needs to asses their tolerance for risk. Enjoy the tree til it has to come down, and except a risk somewhat higher then a perfect tree, or remove and replace it now.

Under this scenario, will the cost of a later removal cause the cost to go up, or would it be relatively the same some 10 years on down the road?

lxt · Oct 2, 2009

I feel bad for the home owner if she`s following this thread, before long there will be so many differing opinions she`ll not know good from Bad!

Dear Homeowner, if you have been asked to follow this thread & the party who looked at & took pictures of your trees needs advice from here....people who cant definitively & truly assess the trees health untill they look at it in person!!

Then you need to hire a more competent Arborist/tree service!

LXT...................

Shaun Bowler · Oct 2, 2009

Looks like a car crashed into the tree.
I have a lot of experiece with that.
Dig up the root crown under the wound.
That will tell you everything you need to know.
By the way, do conks show up around the wound seasonaly?

chipmaker29 · Oct 3, 2009

lxt said:
I feel bad for the home owner if she`s following this thread, before long there will be so many differing opinions she`ll not know good from Bad!

Dear Homeowner, if you have been asked to follow this thread & the party who looked at & took pictures of your trees needs advice from here....people who cant definitively & truly assess the trees health untill they look at it in person!!

Then you need to hire a more competent Arborist/tree service!

LXT...................

Wow...lol

i see nothing wrong in coming here for advice on situations that you may not be sure of but i definitely would not invite my customer to "follow" the thread.

prolly not a good idea...imo :dizzy:

John Paul Sanborn · Oct 3, 2009

chipmaker29 said:
prolly not a good idea...imo

Cuz none of us knows our ash from a pole in the ground?

jburlingham · Oct 3, 2009

Jeremy rule of thumb, tree is diseased, damaged, or infested therefore it could fall down causing damage or injury to persons, places or things.

Best course of action cut it down as a preemptive strike, and get paid in the process.

chipmaker29 · Oct 3, 2009

John Paul Sanborn said:
Cuz none of us knows our ash from a pole in the ground?

no...that is not what i am saying. there is a tremendous amount of knowledge on this forum but just not real professional to tell an H/O to get online and follow where i was asking people to diagnosis/assess their tree. you might say well i am gonna consult those who might be more knowledgeable than myself on this particular issue and get back to you.

like i said...just my opinion and u know what they say about those.

John Paul Sanborn · Oct 4, 2009

I should have put a :laugh:

in there. I was joking, that was a joke posted here not too long ago too.

Some clients i might invite here, but i would be confident that they could take the discord. To many people get on the soapbox with a beer inhand :cheers:

Best course of action cut it down as a preemptive strike, and get paid in the process.

Not every injury is a reason to remove, that one might be, but i would not say so from my desk a thousand miles away.

teamtree · Oct 6, 2009

I have a customer that has a tree very similar but larger area of missing bark. The tree has been like that for almost 10 years. I suggested removing it to be safe but every year it stands I look dumber and dumber to them.

LOL....go figure

Normsworld · Oct 7, 2009

chipmaker29 said:
no...that is not what i am saying. there is a tremendous amount of knowledge on this forum but just not real professional to tell an H/O to get online and follow where i was asking people to diagnosis/assess their tree. you might say well i am gonna consult those who might be more knowledgeable than myself on this particular issue and get back to you.

like i said...just my opinion and u know what they say about those.

Putting myself in the H/O shoes , if they wanted the tree down or could readily afford it they would of chopped it down already . More than one company has already looked at it .This tree just might live a while( only God knows for sure) and the more opinions from you pro's might just make it easier for the H/O to swallow if it does need an axe . More trained eyes would make me feel better . I bet "wecuttrees " just never anticipated the unprofessional attitude projected at him when he gave them the web address. He seems more conscientious than full of himself , a trait welcome any day in my circle . Mechanic tells me my ignition module is bad ,go buy one ( no return on electrical parts ). hmm, but if I see ten different techs say he's probably right I feel better .

wecuttrees · Oct 8, 2009

Normsworld said:
I bet "wecuttrees " just never anticipated the unprofessional attitude projected at him when he gave them the web address. He seems more conscientious than full of himself , a trait welcome any day in my circle .

Norm, in fact knew that it might explode as it did. But honestly it could have been worse.

I can assure you that I have "typed" WAY more replys than I ever posted.

I got all my feelings out, argued, told anyone and everyone how they were wrong, vented, :bang::bang::bang: and hilighted it all and then hit "delete".

After the delete, I wrote what you saw. (except a couple times where I had to repeat the above process a few times just to get it all out

,

And you know what? I learned a lot! Really.

It was really eye opening to see people talking about a LOT of stuff I don't know about as of yet.

And honestly I dont think I would have learned this without the accountability of the home owner watching

Boa07 · Oct 8, 2009

Excellent post, I suspect it is a description of a familiar process that many of the more worth while posters follow on this forum and in other places.

As I said over at TB it is really about being honest, acknowledging where you need help and having the sense to seek out collaboration from other Arbs who can bring that experience and knowledge you and the HO need.

A great many of us have journeyed from climbing and cutting into consulting and it is important that we don't forget what that was like, or hard it was (and dare I suggest continues to be!)

Can you give your opinion on this client's tree? PLEASE!

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