Centerbore cut VIDEO is here!

finally i get this darn thing to load onto a site. This is the centerbore cut done on a 19" red oak. it is done with 2 wedges and a tension rope. the tree was taken down due to some witer storm damage that was risking the tree to split in half over the brand new house and deck. this was alot closer of proximity to the house that i can show in the video. i had climbed this and removed two huge limbs over the house that would hit it if we dropped her whole......Enjoy the video!!!

http://uncutvideo.aol.com/Playback.do?AssetID=925f4c4d1187633e35401fe267933d2d

-mike

Good job, took a while for it to go, just teetering there.

Nice looking wood, what was that tree?

And that Stihl saw sounded funny, what was it, and is it modded?

It's a good technique that, and you cuts were good, nice and parallel.

You guys do talk rather unusual though.

Man, everything's so green over there.

Good vid bud.Just wonderin(prolly missed it in another post)what is the purpose of that cut?Does it combat a lean?Or are yous guys just tryin new techniques?

That is the recommended felling cut for forward leaning trees so they dont barber chair.

ahhhhh

makes sense thank you bud

Ekka said:

Good job, took a while for it to go, just teetering there.

Nice looking wood, what was that tree?

And that Stihl saw sounded funny, what was it, and is it modded?

It's a good technique that, and you cuts were good, nice and parallel.

You guys do talk rather unusual though.

Man, everything's so green over there.

Click to expand...

yea, it did take a little bit to fall due to the 25-30 mph winds that kicked up just after i made the notch (face cut) and the fact that my rope man was trying to combat the winds. If you watch the video closely you'll see me run behind some other trees to aid my ground man in pulling.

The tree was a Northern Red Oak (Quercus rubra) very hard, heavy, dense, real good burning wood!

As for my saw it is a stihl 026 ( older model ) that has been heavily ported, dual port muffler, larger carb, and running on 110 octane race fuel ( it likes the high test better)

The cut is used around here quite commonly and is specifically used to load up the tree even without the aid of a rope. you can literally hammer the tree over. It is also used for the odd shaped scrubby trees ( and double crotchers)around here too : example- in the movie watch that i load the house side up with the wedge first and then the other side is done. this is to "nudge" the tree away from the house after the final back cut ( remember that wedge is loaded up more than the other side)


An yes we do talk funny,,,,but man you aussies sound strange too!! LOL

hahahah you think that property is green......ill take a picture of one tomorrow that is REALLLLLLLLy green! LOL

-mike

Hammer it over

heres a short clip of me hammering a centerbore cut over with 3 wedges. the spar is about 35' tall and 10' from main power wires. enjoy

http://uncutvideo.aol.com/Playback.do?AssetID=bf8c38cc2a9c0cb7f0258c1b454636


-mike

a lot of hammering, tuff one

stuff

A few things I noticed on your first video.
1) When you're making the top part of the open face cut, the first time you looked at the sights the saw was not level. The next time you do one of those cuts note how the two sights on the saw that are visible, do not point to the same spot unless the saw is level. This isn't an issue when making a flat cut, but even then it is only an accuracy thing for serious precision.
2) When you bore look at your right index finger. You're doing that to increase forward push to help the saw in. But that is a bad tendency period and especially bad when starting a bore as that is a time you want to guard against kickback with not just skill but hand grip. While it is not a big deal after the saw is in a ways, you might want to delete that from your repertoire.
3) Your escape crossed across the back of the tree, understood with the wind concerns. Think that out beforehand next time. Locally we don't certify anyone unless they can demonstrate the ability to make all their cuts from just one side of the tree/snag.

On a thread April 30th (Plunge Cut on a Set Back Tree) we discussed standard back-cut versus a boring back-cut when utilizing a rope pull. I changed my opinion and agree with John Ellison on that one. “I would not use the strap cut release because if there is too much tension it would be a sudden shake.
If the line is tensioned and the back-cut is made in the conventional manner, you can tell almost immediately what you have, if you need more tension or less.”

Of course you could set up a rope pulley to give your puller a mechanical advantage to hold against wind or allow them to be off to the side.

smokechase, i would have had another excape path but there was none...... did you not notice the house and 4' high stone wall??? directly at my back. I went through the woods behind other trees VERY far away from the felling path but by the time i got there my groundie had managed to overcome the wind and down it came.

As for the cut:i have been doing it for years now like this and I am VERY comfortable with this style . and for holding my saw so "wierd" it is due to the very agressive chain that i use (i had just taken the rakers don that morning) and the fact that i only weigh 130 lbs i have to lean in with a little more force than other guys do to make this cut to prevent kickback.

In order to get the proper hinge eveness on "smaller" trees like this you have to start from this side in order to get the saw in straight without taking out too much extra wood compromising the hinge or the back holding piece....

-mike

Ok

In reverse order:
1) You do not have to bore from that side. You can also bore from the other side, just compensate. Here is a really nice video from Sweden that was posted here on arborsite.com showing the start of the bore from that side of the tree:
Go to: http://www.skogforsk.se/KunskapDirekt/default.aspx?p=11362&bmp=11727
then: Film för bredband
then: Avverkning med motorsåg (10 min) the bore is at about the 2:10 mark.
(other videos and info of interest are also there)

A huge reason for this is sooner or later you're gonna get a tree that the only way it can be cut on safely is to make all your cuts away from below the hazard. Which of course, may well be on the back-cut cutting side in this video.
2) The second reason is it gives you the cleaner safer escape that doesn't involve the crossing behind the tree/snag. I'm not saying that you needed a second escape path, or that you should have scaled walls and gone through the house, just that you can smooth out that first escape by finishing your cuts on the same side as the escape.
3) You can still lean into your saw to give it some oomph with a good grip. Please be aware that your forcing the saw in is not what prevents kickback.
"the fact that i only weigh 130 lbs i have to lean in with a little more force than other guys do to make this cut to prevent kickback." It is the tip angle/finesse of the entry that prevents kickback. What a good grip can do is help control a kickback range of motion, to a degree. Putting more force into the cut, should the bore have been miss-started, will result in a greater kickback. Not a reduced one.

As for your being comfortable with whatever style. No problem. Just that when you post a video of using sights inaccurately, expect a comment or two.

And: Go with two pulleys for some mechanical advantage, (wind or other issues), and three for mechanical advantage plus relocating the puller from under the trees intended lay.


I like my rakers at 30 thousandths because we cut mostly dead wood, would go with 35 over the 25 thousandths that most chains come with. But solid dead is so prone to kickback that I don't go lower.
But: My Father-in Law would take a 10-12" flat mill bastard to every new chain and do 5 strokes on the depth guides. Major pile of metal filings at the bottom of that vise. I'm not man enough for that myself.

yes, i am aware that i can cut on the other side, and i have before, in a needed situation. also yes maybe i could have finished the cut on the other side of the tree but i didnt.

PPE Soren.

second video

1CallLandscape:
Let's discuss the notch on the second video.
Step back for a bit from this review and look at the reasons for the open face.
It is a small timber production cutting technique from Scandinavia. Meant for saving as much wood as possible from forests that have been intensively managed and have few larger trees with minimal butt swell. That is great, but it can have some bad tendencies for working in either non-production, larger timber or in snag settings.

One specific item with regard to the usual size of the face. Making a larger opening face is a great idea. Control to the ground. Hear hear. But open face cuts are often weak with regard to depth into the tree. Remember, if you're not trying for a commercial log with minimal loss at the butt, there usually is no reason to go with a shallow face.

The reason to avoid the shallow face, from any undercut technique, is that a deeper face can provide a superior release.
1) Face provides the initial part or the release,
2) Back cut the second step to the release,
3) Hinge controls the release.

Consider dropping a tree without a face. Dangerous for many reasons. Also inefficient because the first part of the release was skipped. Start adding deeper and deeper undercuts to this same tree, (within reason), and we get a tree that will more readily start to fall.
An extreme example is something that happens on the West Coast. Picture a 5 foot plus diameter straight 'staub' 20-30 feet high. They need to get removed in logging and fire operations. The fallers working on these have learned to put whatever face they use in 50% or greater. You get all that weight balanced, without a long lever to assist, and you absolutely need a deep face.

Scale that thought back a bit and apply all this to your second tree. You describe it as a spar about 35 feet tall and have problems wedging it over.
Honestly, that is not a good video of wedging. Sorry.

Most would point out the width of the hinge as being too wide. The difficulties of wedging a boring back-cut on a small tree and so forth.

I'd just like to suggest that since it wasn't being dropped for commercial purposes; make the face a bit deeper.

On the East Coast, the emphasis is the necessary face depth to get a decent amount of wood for a hinge that controls well. Small timber. On the West Coast, it's more depth of the face to get an adequate release. Bigger timber.

This doesn't mean that some crossover cannot occur. Granted, what works in small timber, because you can get away with it, doesn't make it acceptable to take to larger trees.

In addition to a deeper face, buy Tim Ards eBook and try out some of the very clever ways of using bore cuts to facilitate the wedging of small diameter trees. You can still do the open face and bore the back most of the time. Just make it easier.

Better yet. Become ambidextrous and get reasonably good at all techniques and pick the one that works best on your next tree.

Look. I laid off the PPE and a bunch of other items. Just trying to put a couple of thoughts out there.
All the Best.

I haven't read the whole thread yet (it's starting to get over my head), but thanks for posting up. Definitely an educational video and discussion for newbies like me.

smokechase II said:

Scale that thought back a bit and apply all this to your second tree. You describe it as a spar about 35 feet tall and have problems wedging it over.
Honestly, that is not a good video of wedging. Sorry.

Most would point out the width of the hinge as being too wide. The difficulties of wedging a boring back-cut on a small tree and so forth.

I'd just like to suggest that since it wasn't being dropped for commercial purposes; make the face a bit deeper.

Click to expand...

Smokechase, dude i dont know why your being so critical on this cut and my personal technique. it was purely for demonstration purpose of the cut. I feel that i did a pretty darn good job on it....yes, i could improve on it and that will come in time.

secondly, the only ppe that i lacked was my chaps, it was 90 degreese and i was dying of heat in pants as it is...shoot me for it! I had my steel toe boots on, jeans, eye protection and Ear plugs ( muffs are too hot and sweaty in the summer) I appreciate your "insight" on the bore cut as well as all of the technical terms but really, are you going to stop at the tree and run down a check list to the T ????

Concerning the width of my hinge::::It was left wider than needed due to the fact that the tree was being dropped on a raised septic system ( 2' below surface) . I did this to slow the rate of decent, also to reduce the impact. ( i couldnt block it down , it would do alot more damage) yes, alot of hammering for a tree, i agree but it was intended.

If you have a better video of this cut, and all of the "proper formulas" for cutting it, with procision like you describe that you know, and do it in a real world circumstance,,,, Then I and everybody else would LOVE to see it!!!

Thanks
-mike

1CallLandscape said:

Smokechase, dude i dont know why your being so critical on this cut and my personal technique. ...

...yes, i could improve on it and that will come in time.

Click to expand...

Well, I'm not a tree guy, so I can't comment on the felling technique. But I do know a bit about life that applies in every field of human endevour.

If you get defensive about constructive criticism, improvement will come a lot slower, and may never come at all.

i'm not trying to sound defensive in my previous posts : but i dont appreciate being harped on by one person. constructive critisim is one thing but when somebody tells me that im F%$#in up all the way around , i dont appreciate it after i have tried to show some people a cut that they may or may not know. I think at 22 im doing pretty good at this tree cuttin stuff

I do appreciate feed back but not harping on every minor detail of how i went wrong holding the saw, too much banging etc..... If smokechase thinks that he can do it better than i would like to watch a video from him and possibly learn his great technique.

-mike

bait

It sounds like I'm being baited.
OK, I'll bite.

Are hardhats and gloves optional PPE in Massachusetts?

I said; "Look. I laid off the PPE and a bunch of other items. Just trying to put a couple of thoughts out there.
All the Best."

You posted these videos as a how to or let me show you this technique. I'm sorry, but try and not do that again without a disclaimer and learn how to drive a wedge both right and left handed or slip in a stunt double that can. (You get nasty, expect a similar response.)

I'll have to fire up the video camera, charge the batts that haven't been used in awhile. Understood.
Locally we have a no chain saw (IFPL 3) restriction in place. Exception is for emergencies, such as fires. Might be able to do some video shortly, but it is more likely to be 2-? weeks with the dryness in the Northwest.

In the mean time. May I suggest the Tim Ard eBook again? It includes videos and is of the open face technique.

details

Now back to being civil.

Proper PPE and escape routes are not minor items.

They are important and do need to be dealt with in a forum as widely viewed as this one.

Concept things like miss-stating that more pressure on the saw will reduce tip kickback occurrence is also very much worth pointing out.

I could mention other items but I'm trying to maintain what I started. Professional criticism. You'll get your shot at me. Enjoy.