120' "W. Red" Removal - Rigging & Pricing VS a Parasite Obstruct'n (E. Ivy)

[NW ArborCat]

'Evening, Y'all.

Looking forward to finally being able to post more often on the big A.S. This is a great site for info if you can survive the beatings. They range from the verbal equivalent of a cedar switch to a sack of doorknobs.

But it's hard to go wrong here if you keep the site rules & arboriculture fundamentals in mind, imo.

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Playing it extra safe x4 here. I want no surprises & to keep my spotless drop-record:

A house was planted very close to a western red cedar, long after this otherwise fine tree grew from a baby. Then, the English ivy grew up the trunk, & it was neglected "the usual" amount of time (pics will be posted below).


-Initial Customer Request-

Request: Removal.


-Obstacles-

Drop Zone is 16 feet between primary residence & neighbor's fence, and approx 20-30' long. Trunk to be removed is just over 12 feet from primary residence (measured from outer edge, facing structure).

Slope tends towards primary residence

Half-width "sidewalk" (residential, approx 2.5 ft wide), between fence & trunk

Tree is cornered on 3 sides by fences & house

NOTE: See below: partially covered in thick English Ivy


-Tree in Question--

Common Name: Western Red Cedar
Diameter @ 4ft up: 3.5-4ft
Height: 120ft
Complications: Large English Ivy Infestation. Otherwise, a near-perfect specimen; No "hangars", Straight & good trunk, decent vigor (As best I could see, anyhow) remaining despite ivy (Assuming ivy doesn't hide a flaw!).


-My questions-

1) I've done enough rigging to be proficient but not when trunk is thick w/ ivy stalks. Is there any risk of my butt-hitching or any misc. / etc slipping, if I don't remove most of the ivy first?? I'm mainly thinking butt-hitching & limb-rigging here.

2) EDIT: No vertical speed-line! IMO, I was way too hasty to even ask about vertical slide-lining the trunk rounds (speed lining) as alternative to negative blocking (butt-hitch). Those forces are far too great to employ this system so close to obstacles (esp. the primary residence), & they may hit the fence, too. My bad. I typed the original post in a hurry & my brain was already done for the night. I think y'all will agree, yes?

3) On the end of my drop zone is another big cedar, maybe 30' away at most. This is too close to bother doing a speed-line for the limbs, yes? (I'm planning to set a block up 1/2 or 2/3rds up this opposite cedar tree or etc, for help rigging the removal-cedar --or at least pull-line the top-- the angle is ideal).

4) How much must I remove before I can start work? How much extra money do I need to bill for, 'cuz of this ivy?? What would you price this this job, in total, including whatever % of vertical, thick ivy stalks must be cut/ peeled away from the trunk (& any lateral vines' / leaves' %) you think must be removed for optimal safety?

Or can I just blast through the climb & carefully piece out everything, w/out removing much of this ivy at all? That'd be the cat's PJ's. SO much less time/ cost!

Thanks several tons.

 

[TheJollyLogger]

Pics?

 

[NW ArborCat]

Thanks, JollyLogger, for reply.

I wasn't able to post any pics before the internets store closed. I had to give back their internets. And the ones near home are now extinct. Will see what I can do from my limited, craptacular mobile-internets, tonight.

Otherwise, I can def. post pics tomorrow morning or lunch.

 

[NW ArborCat]

Photos, Batch 1:
Bear w/ me on the green edits-- for customer privacy --my good photo software wasn't installed to my new pc yet, so I had to use ~shudder~ microsoft Paint.

IMG 7094 is facing the cedar to be removed, w/ my back near the opposite cedar (Seems sturdy enough to rig-to so far). Further behind that by another 15+ ft, is a residential road (fairly busy). Note the underground utilities continue in that straight line, all the way out to the street.

IMG 7044 is facing the opposite direction of the previous photo, w/ the removal-cedar just behind me.

IMG 7059 is peering at the hidden side of the removal-cedar, from the backyard (dogs, obstacles, fence = I probably won't lower much-- or anything-- into this backyard).

More pics on the way now. . .

 

[NW ArborCat]

Photos, Batch 2:
More detail re: Batch 1.

IMG 7064 &
IMG 7063 . . .
are 2 more backyard pics to balance out the 1st backyard photo.

IMG 7076 shows (partially). . .
how the mini-sidewalk follows exactly alongside the boxwood hedge (see IMG 7094, Batch 1). I may pull up & move this entire sidewalk (it's small & in sections). No prob. But maybe overkill, we'll see. Also visible: Neighbor's fence on left (3 feet from trunk-edge of removal-cedar).

 

[BC WetCoast]

If it was me I would strip the ivy as you climb and strip the branches. If you don't have to save the tree, ivy strips pretty easy in plates. Cut a couple of horizontal cuts and a vertical cut and peel it off. You may want to take a screwdriver or pry bar to help peel it. It will make your life easier without the ivy.

Tough to estimate a cost, it depends on the size of those cedar branches. They can be small and straight, relatively easy to handle, or big, sloping downward with a huge curve in them and tangled together. Was this tree topped in the past, does it have large candelabra branches?

Just from what I see, 1 day to strip/blow the top, 1-1.5 days for the wood, depending on the length of drag, size of branches. Without seeing the branches, a couple of ideas would be to rig them but have the climber control the line (they won't be heavy, but you're a little short of room, also put a biner on the end of your rigging line so you have less time dealing with knots), or limb walk out to the tips, drop the fluffy part then do a second cut on the stub.

You may want to consider bringing in some plywood to protect the house and fence and then just bomb the wood down.

 

[NW ArborCat]

Photos, Batch 3:
Street view. Foreground-tree leans a bit in the direction of camera, towards the street. You may be able to discern how badly the limbs on the background-cedar hang directly over neighbor's house. Or not. IMO, not very badly over Neighbor's at all. Glob, I love cedars-- really are my favorite! ^_^

!Note that the tree in the background is the removal-cedar!

Addit'nal cedars: Sidenote: The customer wants foreground cedar gone, too, & 2 more cedars (not visible here) along his backyard fenceline. He thinks H.A. won't let him remove any of these, & I hope he's right!! They're grand trees if we can rule out substantial risk on that leaning, foreground-cedar (I've close-ups of my informal trunk base & root-flare inspection, re: Foreground-cedar; Probly safe but will share em later).

 

[NW ArborCat]

Thanks, BC WetCoast-- This is great, I'm seeing familiar names already ^_^ I liked your feedback provided to other climbers in the past. Maybe one was the discussion re: "Should I / how to take a bail-out line w/ me, chunking down a spar?". Anyhoo, good to see ya. Thanks much for your time.

If it was me I would strip the ivy as you climb and strip the branches. . . peel it off. You may want to take a screwdriver or pry bar to help peel it. It will make your life easier without the ivy.

Good. Customer had just severed the vines from the ground (see upcoming pic) & I think 8-10 days will make that severed ivy come out a lot easier, right? I will def. bring a pry tool, thx.

 

[NW ArborCat]

Tough to estimate a cost, it depends on the size of those cedar branches. They can be small and straight, relatively easy to handle, or big, sloping downward with a huge curve in them and tangled together. Was this tree topped in the past, does it have large candelabra branches?

Thx for the reminder of those cedar-tangles. Try as I might, I couldn't see much in the way of candelabra-limbs or tangle potential. I was really pleased; The customer made it sound much worse & I've climbed up some a'those low candelabras like a monkey, as a youth, on cedars of similar size. But this one seems to be 80-98 % delicious cake. So I'll assume I might find a few minor spots during the first 25%-40% of the ascent.

And in person, it sure looks like a never-been-topped beauty. Here, I have more pics that might help. I hope he'll be persuaded to save this tree but he really likes his lil sidewalk path :/ And is scared of trees near his house. Classic.

 

[NW ArborCat]

You may want to consider bringing in some plywood to protect the house and fence and then just bomb the wood down.

Smashing. That'd save literally tons of rigging time. If I can be safe enough w/ the bombing forces involved, to keep the trunk chunks, or even a coupla 12ft logs, from rolling across that little slope & damaging the house (You may be able to glimpse the bumpy slope in first photo of "Batch 1"), that'd be ____! --the same adjective that rhymes w/ "mitts".

If so, I guess I should buy max thickness: 3/4" thick, or 1", if they got it.

 

[Zale]

How many on your crew?

 

[NW ArborCat]

How many on your crew?

Thanks, Zale. I forgot to mention that.

Pretty small-time for now. I'd love to do this one w/ myself, a large port-a-wrap III, & 1 groundie. But I'll go 3 or even 4 of us, total, if I really must. Customer said unsolicited, "He doesn't care if it takes 2 days or 2 weeks" -- So a coupla days +/-, is a-ok w/ me.

(My crew on an average day, is quite small-time: 1 climber {me}, 1 groundie. Occasionally for the "bigger jobs" {Lol, I use the term loosely} I'll bring in an extra 1-2 ground crew ppl; a couple go-to ppl I've been training-up)

 

[BC WetCoast]

Depending on the length of drag, we'd do the stripping with a climber and groundie, maybe add an extra person to move wood. You have a pretty tight drop zone, too big a crew and you'll have people getting each other's way.

In terms of plywood, it would be easier to just put up 2 sheets rather than try and find 1" for example. Don't forget, I'm giving ideas on things we've done in the past. Without being on site, I couldn't say for sure whether they would work for you.

If it makes any difference, that leaner in the foreground is an arborvitae (hedging cedar - not sure which one - could also be a cypress - like a Leyland cypress) and not a Thuja plicata (Western red cedar). They have a really small root mass in relation to the amount of foliage and IMO not very stable when their big. Again IMO not a big loss if it was to go. On the other hand it's a shame to lose that big WRC. Any chance you can talk the owner into raising the canopy above his roof , stripping the ivy and thinning out the canopy? Shame to lose an ~80 yo tree like that, because the owner likes a POS $50 sidewalk.

Spurless climbing Western Red cedars can be really challenging. In the lower half of the larger ones, the branches slope downward, so to put a climbing line over a branch to climb into the canopy is hard because it wants to slide off the branch. They also tend to be thick so shooting a throwline into it can try your patience.

 

[NW ArborCat]

Photos, Batch 4:
Best seen as all 4-in-a-row. They're taken either just behind, or directly underneath, the removal-cedar, with the street (unshown) far beyond / up / past whatever you can see of trunk & wall to the left, in all 4 photos. Primary residence is on my left.

Note RE: IMG 707:
"Wish I could save this tree dept.":
Again, is taken facing towards the street (not shown), from the backyard edge. Directly to my right (not shown) is the gate that'd have to be moved to my left -- opposite side it's on now -- if he wanted to save that tree instead -- keep a walkway past the removal-tree, not encroach / hurt the existing root-uplift where his mini-sidewalk currently runs.

 

[NW ArborCat]

Photos, Batch 5:

IMG 7130 is same as last batch, but facing backyard instead. Neighbor's fence is on my left. Note the overhead branches-overlap VS fenceline is pretty nice.

IMG 7077 & 7078: Trunk is approx. 3.5-4ft in diameter, from 4ft up. Monocular for scale. Ivy was cut and is currently dying & drying.

 

[rbtree]

Climbing through ivy is a chore. Though, with that specific tree, it looks difficult to get a safe line set, I would try, with a Big Shot to power a line up close to the trunk, Test its set with at least two people's weight. Binoculars can help. Then climb the rope to the top, (SRT is best) , and reset, and install a lowering line for the limbs. Descend down, cutting the ivy vertically in a few planes and try to work it free...or, just cut the worst of the ivy foliage. Then, work back up, delimb and pull ivy... (It's much easier to remove ivy from the top down, but with so many limbs in the way, the task is complicated.

I don't think a few weeks will make the ivy come off more easily... But you'll find that it frees itself relatively easily from WRC, unlike, say, from rough barked Douglas-fir

For the actual limbing, as many as three groundies are needed. With just one, you'll be waiting forever to progress smoothly and efficiently.

Your questions sound reasonable, but your experience seems limited. Proceed if you feel comfortable, but with common sense and caution. Or call me. I've been at it 40 years plus now.

I agree, strip ivy, do some end weight reduction or long limb removal, and save a tree valued at well over $15k..and save the customer $3000..... I'd probably need at least $4-5k to tackle that tree.

 

[BC WetCoast]

Just a minor technical thought came to mind. Ivy is not parasitic, in that all it derives from the tree is support, but does not take any nutrients out of the tree.

Dwarf mistletoe in hemlock is parasitic as the roots grow into the tree and adsorb energy from the tree.

 

[NW ArborCat]

Big thanks for the detailed responses.

I'dve gotten back to each of you sooner, but I've been staying in a remote location for work. The internet is almost non-existent. I just get a coupla times a week to pack my portable office out to a store a coupla towns over, where I can use their wireless to type thing, upload/DL, & such.

Thanks for waiting.

 

[NW ArborCat]

First: I was really pleased to see opinions to save this cedar. ^_^ Been hoping we'd get to that!
So much so, that I'd begun typing my alternate plan for saving the organism, last week (We can sorta disregard it now, 'cuz I'm about to post a big update).

Here's what I wrote last week, for posting today, on internets-day:
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"Alternate Plan: Try convincing customer of benefits of saving this tree VS. risks or cons. I really want to. I fear this poor tree is going to pay w/ its life for humans' lack of planning. I hope I'm wrong, but I'm not optimistic. See for yourselves, below.

Customer's concerns:
A) Normal root flare is now uplifting small, narrow sidewalk. IMO, there's no way to keep even a non-paved pathway there unless customer either tolerates walking over a root flare to get into his backyard, or "edits" his fence to have a fence-gate to his backyard that is opposite the tree.

B) Doesn't want trees close to his house. Doesn't seem familiar w/ this species -- Thuja Plicata, AKA W.R. Cedar -- or the benefits of saving the other 2 in the backyard. However, he likely can't have the 2 other cedars removed within H.A. guidelines."
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But I knew if I posted the situation here, I'd get considerably more experienced opinions on the value VS risk of this tree. And y'all did not disappoint. Not by a long shot. My own, limited experience suggested, preserving this cedar was very likely to be the preferable scenario (provided the ivy was stripped & no major defects were found hiding). But I'm only training in $$ appraising trees now. Still a long way to go.

 

[NW ArborCat]

UPDATE: Excellent news on this project: I want to give some extra thanks for supporting & bolstering my opinion that this tree should be preserved, because ^_^

Customer has agreed to save the removal cedar! I almost pegged him --mistakenly-- as tough-to-sell on it, but who could deny the obvious benefits? I'm really happy about this one, boys & girls. I hope this don't reflect sissy-like on my rep on this site, but I don't think I could've lived w/ myself if I cut down that tree so one-sidedly. To the point where I kinda didn't want the project. Made me feel like a tool.

I'd MUCH rather change order to a spurless, restoration-climb. Can you tell that during my pics, I was kinda wishful-thinking sighting it for a possible spurless? Hehheheheh

On a high-pressure crew, I was once told to "professionally" climb a beautiful old cedar w/ 2 other spurred guys, for one of the NW's biggest tree companies (Or they claim they're the biggest in their state). To this day I'm astounded they call themselves pros, let alone "Best in the Biz". It was for a basic maintenance climb. WTF. I've been meaning to start a thread about that one I'll tell ya what they told me when I told em it wasn't an acceptable practice, too. I digress. More on that later. I still get mad about that. I don't think I'll specify their name, though.