A question of morality, to kill or not to kill

[Matt Follett]

Okay, there are not too many jobs we have taken on that I feel bad for doing (removals) we for the most part only remove those that really need coming down, or are in the way of some advancement of society (or at least the clients house)...

I bid on... and got a few removals a few weeks ago that I have been putting off... Here's the deal, Downtown in our little 'city' back of buildings, slight ravine, Alianthus altissima, 3 of them, large (30" dbh)... apparently moisture fluctuation in the clay soil has caused foundation cracking in the block wall structure next to them (sounds feasible) Client wants us to put them on the ground only... (we have a reputation for empeccable removals and clean-ups) he'll clean up the mess ( I wonder if he knows what he's getting into??!!.)

There are other scruby trees on the embankment that will stay Acer nugudo!! But I hate to see the reduction in green surface in out downtown core... then I don't even want our trucks parked near the job etc etc. The moneys not that great... it's just a day's worth of work bla bla bla, Oh yeah and the 'comments thread'... this guy (referred by a good client) says' 'My familys a big construction family we can send you lot's of work give me a deal...'

What should I do? or have I just answered it myself ( again)
thanks for the insight, anybody want a sub job... nah it's not worth that much

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I've done it, and will do it again. More Tree of Haeven will grow, those may regenerate basally.

I hate killing any tree, but then that is one of the parts of the job description.

Unless we can afford to be solely advocatus pro arboribus then we need to do the dirty deed from time to tme.

Seems you don't like having the trucks on a job you won't clean up, I I would give the guy the benefit of the doubt, do ther job for the noramal price and see if he comes through with more work.

It does happen from time to time, but they usually want it doen their way and not hear anything from the labor. Oh, I'm generalizing about developers....

 

[murphy4trees]

I think Brian made a good call on the client's personality. Well put Brian... you may even want to add a few bucks on for the hassle he's bound to make over some issue or another.

 

[Stumper]

I never feel guilt about cutting Ailanthus. I may try my best to dissuade people from some removals but Ailanthus .....Naw.

 

[trees4life]

Matt, you mentioned a 'slight' ravine area. If this is a natural area, removal of invasive exotics is a common practice, as is leaving some stems standing, logs & brush on the ground, in order to provide wildlife habitat. If there is a slope area, is there any way to encourage the owner to plant some native species to help prevent erosion? This may also be an opportunity to actually improve a ravine ecosystem.

 

[NeTree]

Originally posted by Stumper
I never feel guilt about cutting Ailanthus. I may try my best to dissuade people from some removals but Ailanthus .....Naw.

I agree. Ailanthus isn't native to our country, anyhow. It was accidentally imported by man, so I wouldn't feel too guilty either. Ailanthus tends to choke out native species, and I usually recommend its removal.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I gotta stick with Matt on this, inner cities have a very hard time keeping trees alive. Many areas here then Tree of Heaven, Siberian elm, and Box elder are the primary canopy. So removing large trees is not nesessarily a plus.

Some really big horse chesnuts too.

These things can be fun to take down, with having them over 3, two-story houses and 4 garages and rotten picket fences, transmission lines in the alley... and cavites and cankers in every stem

Though often times we can get then to take the fence out and practicaly back the chipper up to the tree.

Even the cut it and leave it jobs can be a problem, beause there is no room to climb out of the tree after you get it down to a pole

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Native, schmative, ginkgoes are native; they were here before the last ice age...

Ailanthus is a great urban tree but it can break hardscape, so whack em. jps is right about basal sprouting; sell them stump treatment w roundup concentrate to lessen that.

I stopped selling removals a while ago but I do sell many "replacements". If the client has no room on the site for a tree plant 3 shrubs, or a tree elsewhere in their honor. Most tree owners like this concept, few want to be known as canopy-destroyers. the ones that don't mind, charge em more.

 

[Menchhofer]

Do it but do not put any faith in his statement he will get you more work if you give him a good price. Just charge what it is worth.

 

[Matt Follett]

Thanks for the remarks folks...

I went back to the site again today, just to consider the consequences... It is a scrapy place, and perhaps with them gone it could be cleaned up, I'm just concerned that it will be left to turn into a disaster, So I have decided to request a signed letter from the client (since we are not doing the clean-up) that the site will be cleaned of debris, and I will have no responsiblity/liabilty for any remedial work or subsequent bank retention, and trees/shubs replanted to help to retain the bank... etc. As well I am going to ask to see the engineers report on the foundation, which states that the craking is a result of moisture fluctuation.

Maybe overkill but who cares.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Originally posted by Guy Meilleur
sell them stump treatment w roundup concentrate to lessen that.

I said regeneration, I want more trees to come back!


If the client has no room on the site for a tree plant 3 shrubs.

Plant dwarf CVS! so many cool trees that don't grow but 3-5 inches a year! or fastigiate CVS, Like fagus sylvatica 'Dawyck Purple' or 'Red Obelisk'

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Originally posted by John Paul Sanborn

Plant dwarf CVS! so many cool trees that don't grow but 3-5 inches a year! or fastigiate CVS, Like fagus sylvatica 'Dawyck Purple' or 'Red Obelisk'

Who's footing the bill for these rare sp.?
Real dwarves don't make canopy. Some non-dwarves don't stay small, like the Prunus caroliniana "Nana" which is now 15' tall and blocking our view of the pond. I tell the wife I'll dig it up after hurrcane season.

Some dwarf conifers at the JCR Arb are 40' now.

But re the Ailanthus, aren't they next to a cracking wall? A good reason to kill the stump and replant elsewhere, imo.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Dwarf is a term relative to the parent species. If one is gong to the trouble to get a dwarf, then reading the material on the CVS would be a good idea.

Most of the nurseries provide 10 year average growth rates; like 4 ft, 8 ft, 10 ft...

Some dwarf conifers at the JCR Arb are 40' now

So, is the parent species 100 ft tall at the that age?

You say plant a shrub, I say why limit the selection. Using the proper cvs can be critical in "right tree" placement in small landscapes. Weather dwarf or tightly columnar in growth habit.

BTW, not all dwarf cvs are ungodly expencive, look at 'Alberta Spruce' and mugo 'Mops'

 

[City climber]

ailanthus removals

Keep in mind if your leaving all debris you will have to wor around it especially in tight quarters this can be a pain. and theres a good chanc once you get it all on the ground customer will realize no way im gonna clean this all up and will want a price on hauling it away.

 

[Matt Follett]

looks like I'm the Grim Reaper on Wednesday...

 

[Matt Follett]

And so it is done...

Went fine, went well actually, BIG, BIG mess on the ground, man I wouldn't want to clean it up now, heavy wood on top of the brush, limited access, etc. etc. oh well that part's his problem...

The Engineers report was vague at best, the true reason for the building faults is poor foundation/piling work, compounded by pressure from the root plates (they were 2-3 feet from the wall)

They may have to excavate to under pin the wall...poor guy...

Anyway I don't feel so bad now and there was 'some' decayed points up in the tree with potential weak points (yeah making myself feel better leave me alone)

To soften things it went way smoother then I thought and we had everything on the ground by lunch... (not bad on the per hour rate so that helped too)

But here's the scary part... the client showed up in the morning 'to help' and start cleaning up wearing shorts, shoes and oh yeah safety glasses, carrying his brothers 024 and some fuel in a laundry basket... I was in the tree at this time and just about fell out laughing, of couse this is the day we don't have the extra chaps or even a spare hard hat on site, so I kindly suggested that he just stay put until we finished... the later he tried to start up the saw, still in shorts... so I tried to explain to him the hazards etc. etc, he bought it for a while... we cut up a bunch on the ground for him because I figured it would lessen the chance of me hearing something awful later,

Ah well, all in a day I guess...

Thanks for the imput on this matter and the moral support

 

[geofore]

scary part/ helpful homeowner

I tell these helpful guys that we have to shut down the job if they want to help while we are working because my insurance won't cover them helping out. Then shut down the machines. It works because most home owners don't want to pay an hourly rate for you and your crew to stand around doing nothing while they "help". It is good to cut the big stuff into a size the home owner can handle. You leave him a sizeable piece to work so he can work up a sweat to better appriciates what you did for him after your gone.