Amsteel question

[booboo]

Bear with me, this may be a stupid question but...

I have no experience with Amsteel or using it as winch cable. A guy I've been working with has been having trouble with the 3/4" 7 strand cable he's running on his larger skidder breaking (broke it twice yesterday). It's been bitterly cold and everything is brittle. He was asking me what I knew about Amsteel and if was even realistic to consider replacing the steel cable with Amsteel and I really don't know so I thought I'd throw it out here for discussion.

Seems to me that issues would be abrasion resistance, setting up the slides, and terminating the cable/slide assembly. If I'm reading right, the Amsteel has a higher breaking strength and working load than comparably sized steel. Any input is appreciated.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

It is stronger and lighter, but has very poor wear characteristics.

I know some who use it in slings, and need to use web tube as a friction guard.

I would think that you wound need a redirect block for every bend in the line to avoid any friction.

 

[galtre]

amsteel

I replaced the 5/16 cable on my 1590 with amsteel blue about 8 mos ago.I also heard about wear issues.I do have the supplied 10' length of webbing to avoid chaffing and the amsteel crush proof thimble.I feel it is wearing better than i expected but i agree with jps in respect to skidder use, it is not the same as my application.It is much more user friendly than cable.One thing i was concerned about looking at it when i took it out of the box was picking ,i have not had any problems.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I talked to a rigger/splicer i know who handles it a lot and he says the wear is very good but it has a low melting point. Choking it can cause damage if there is sudden slip-tightening.

He seems to agree with the need for redirects.

 

[booboo]

Thanks for the responses. I just don't know enough about the stuff to have an informed opinion. Seems to me if it worked well on skidders, people would be using it. Hadn't thought about the low melting point, but was concerned about abrasion. The cable gets used a lot for partial wraps around standing trees to twitch butts around other obstacles or redirect falls and I imagine that would put a lot of stress/heat on it.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

The cable gets used a lot for partial wraps around standing trees to twitch butts around other obstacles or redirect falls and I imagine that would put a lot of stress/heat on it.

The way around that is to use a choker and hook onto that.

Amsteel is a similar product to the hightek winch ropes use on 4x4's these days. It is chemically treated to make it stronger. I'm not sure if it starts out as Dyneema or whatnot.

I think it would be much more user friendly then steel rope

 

[winchman]

better than wire rope

in so many ways:
no burrs, lighter, doesn't matter if it kinks (because it can't), etc.

downside:
you MUST MUST MUST use an aluminum fairlead - this stuff shouldn't touch a piece of steel anywhere, or it will break down as soon as you start pulling. this is from experience. we have a 15,000 lb warn with 1/2" amsteel, plus an aluminum fairlead, and we can pull some huge logs with it. we do have a steel hook on the end of the line, that hasn't caused us any problems yet. maybe later i can post a picture if y'all are interested.

royce

 

[galtre]

amsteel

Winchman- could you elaborate on the amsteel contacting steel problem.I was not informed of this nor have i heard of any problems.But any feedback from anyone with any knowledge of this problem would be greatly appreciated. thanks in advance!

 

[booboo]

Yeah, I'm interested in why the steel would be a problem. Also, based on your reply (Winchman) I'm curious how you've got the line terminated since that was part of my original question. Do you only have a single hook on it and can only pull 1 log at a time? I was wondering if it could be installed on skidders and the termination had me scratching my head. Obviously we'd have to do something different than ferrules and we are using 6 slides per cable. We need to have at least 5 slides. Thanks.

 

[(WLL)]

samson makes amsteel with a tightly braided cover for more protection. the name is amsteel 2 and comes with or without samthane coating. amsteel 2 is a class 2 double braid splice and comes in many sizes from 1/4 in - 1-1/4. 3/8 is just shy of 10,000 abs if you have some extra cash i highly recommend samsons validator-skb its very similar to the above but has more strenth, it still is a class 2 double braid splice and has the braided polyester cover like the amsteel 2 but uses a blend of dyneema sk-75 & vectran core. the vectran blend helps mitigate creep in static loading situations. this rope is bad-ass but cost mucho money. 3/8 has a whopping abs of 12,900 lbs:jawdrop: the 1/2in skb has an abs of more than 22,700lbs amsteel blue is stronger but less protected

 

[galtre]

amsteel

Thanks for the info. Here is the link from the co. that it was purchased from.
Is it ok that I post that info here? It is for informational purposes only.The reason being as I earlier posted ,I was not informed as to any interaction w/steel.I do have a steel roller fairlead on my chipper winch,and have not seen any abnormal or premature wear, considering what we do of course.I did do some research on amsteel blue and as far as common sense issues-be sure no burrs on your winch drum/rollers etc. could not find any problems. Maybe that is why it is said that it should not contact steel? But I do pull trees over from time to time with the winch and dont want any issues im sure you all hear that!

http://wesspur.com/rope/amsteel-blue.html

thanks again!

 

[Jim1NZ]

Due to the price of Amsteel, its well worth simply inserting it into a cheep double braid cover.

Its important not to use a locking brumal or to tie knots in Amstel as it reduces the breaking strength by >50%

Directly bury the splice with an extra long taper, do the same when joining the broken rope. Make sure to whip also.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

3/8 has a whopping abs of 12,900 lbs:jawdrop:

Did you see a Minimum Breaking strength for the product? Sometimes the range between ABS and MBS is so wide that the prior can be misleading.

 

[(WLL)]

Did you see a Minimum Breaking strength for the product? Sometimes the range between ABS and MBS is so wide that the prior can be misleading.

3/8 ABS=12,900 / MBS=10,965
for those that dont understand ABS is the avarage breaking strength, MBS stands for minimum breaking strength. Samson uses the average of ropes cycled @ 50x.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

3/8 ABS=12,900 / MBS=10,965
for those that dont understand ABS is the avarage breaking strength, MBS stands for minimum breaking strength. Samson uses the average of ropes cycled @ 50x.

And the difference is around 18% of the tensile, which is my reason for disliking ABS ratings.

 

[winchman]

steel question

We have the 1/2" amsteel spliced directly onto a single hook.

We had a new 15,000lb warn winch replace the old winch when it gave up the ghost about a year ago. I was excited about using the amsteel, and in the process didn't read all of the fine print. We had it running through a steel fairlead with rollers that didn't turn so well anymore. You could actually see the fibers of amsteel peeling away with some of the heavier pulls. The way this winch is mounted, we sometimes have to pull sideways, sometimes up, most of the time over a side of the fairlead, so this was a major problem. When we replaced with an aluminum fairlead, with no rollers, problem solved. No fibers burning/melting away any more.

All of this being said, we have a 5,000lb winch mounted on our Intimidator 1590 Bandit chipper, again with amsteel (i think it might be 1/4"), but here it does contact the steel rollers. Maybe since it's lighter-duty, or since the rollers turn, it hasn't given us a problem. That winch line breaks from time to time, but it is always near the end. And interestingly, not at the knot most of the time. We sometimes splice the hook on the end of that line, but after the rope is used a bit, no can splice, so clove hitch or anchor hitch or any type of terminal knot works. That 50% drop in strength doesn't seem to matter as much as all the friction that eventually rubs the amsteel raw from constant contact with the ground.

Someday we'd like to replace our 40,000lb winch line with amsteel, but it's probably going to be a while.

 

[(WLL)]

We have the 1/2" amsteel spliced directly onto a single hook.

We had a new 15,000lb warn winch replace the old winch when it gave up the ghost about a year ago. I was excited about using the amsteel, and in the process didn't read all of the fine print. We had it running through a steel fairlead with rollers that didn't turn so well anymore. You could actually see the fibers of amsteel peeling away with some of the heavier pulls. The way this winch is mounted, we sometimes have to pull sideways, sometimes up, most of the time over a side of the fairlead, so this was a major problem. When we replaced with an aluminum fairlead, with no rollers, problem solved. No fibers burning/melting away any more.

All of this being said, we have a 5,000lb winch mounted on our Intimidator 1590 Bandit chipper, again with amsteel (i think it might be 1/4"), but here it does contact the steel rollers. Maybe since it's lighter-duty, or since the rollers turn, it hasn't given us a problem. That winch line breaks from time to time, but it is always near the end. And interestingly, not at the knot most of the time. We sometimes splice the hook on the end of that line, but after the rope is used a bit, no can splice, so clove hitch or anchor hitch or any type of terminal knot works. That 50% drop in strength doesn't seem to matter as much as all the friction that eventually rubs the amsteel raw from constant contact with the ground.

Someday we'd like to replace our 40,000lb winch line with amsteel, but it's probably going to be a while.

the double braid amsteel 2 will last much longer

 

[taalow]

The way around that is to use a choker and hook onto that.

Amsteel is a similar product to the hightek winch ropes use on 4x4's these days. It is chemically treated to make it stronger. I'm not sure if it starts out as Dyneema or whatnot.

I think it would be much more user friendly then steel rope

Yeah, right, Dyneema.

 

[taalow]

Winchman- could you elaborate on the amsteel contacting steel problem.I was not informed of this nor have i heard of any problems.But any feedback from anyone with any knowledge of this problem would be greatly appreciated. thanks in advance!

amsteel contacting steel
Steel is tough, while if there's some burrs, the synthetic rope will be hurt easily. That's why an aluminum fairlead is better than steel for synthetic, as it's not as tough as steel. IMHO, you need it to be more soft and smooth where the amsteel may touch.