Arbo-Theory

[newsawtooth]

I've reached a crossroads. What is the most efficient use of capital with the best ROI? Developing a PHC program or buying more equipment for physical tree work? Basically a spray rig vs grapple truck or bucket truck. I can't do both right now, so if you were to chose one, which would it be? I have a pesticide license but I have reservations about doing it, my own hangups really. But if the ROI is compelling my fragile, artificial and mostly misguided ethics can be shelved. Thanks for any and all input. That is all, carry on.

 

[lxt]

Thats a good question, I have already started the transition phase from "physical" tree work to more of a cosmetic based tree care/landscape service, I also have the pest/herb license but havent delved in to that arena & not sure if it is lucrative??

I have done alot of consulting/field data gathering lately & im thinking this year about focusing on what I have mentioned, all depends regarding my full time job & where that takes me...... actually when I think about it, Im kinda going back to how it was when I first started, 40hr a week job & do side work..........! funny how that seemed to work better.

any way youth dont last forever & im just trying to prepare for tmrw!!!



LXT..............

 

[Bomber]

Spray rig. With spraying you usually have repeat customers on a program every year. Including several applications a year unlike removals and pruning. Spray crew consists of only 2 guys making it more cost efficient. offering a broader perspective of tree care will also net you more customers.

 

[Toddppm]

Have always heard the returns on the spraying/treatments were alot more money. If you can sell it you can do real good, my problem is I don't believe all of the hype with treating trees that much. I wish I could have worked at one of the big companies to see how they do it all and see the results. If I can't believe in it, I can't sell it.

 

[Kottonwood]

Spraying is lucrative, especially here in CO.... in my opinion immoral. I know of some companies pulling a grand a day per spray truck.

I have a mostly organic phc program, when organic ipm techniques aren't possible I will use a contained system like root injections......... if we can't save the trees with that we remove and replace..... also profitable. Though you don't get nearly as many customers that way.... most are happy to spray chemicals where their kids play, I don't get it. Our program is more expensive and I tell customers that right off the bat, I will even tell them exactly what other companies would charge to spray it and I tell them that the spraying will most likely work and save their trees. Most customers around here are open to my ideas if they have the money for it.

In my opinion PHC is real tough to get into unless you have a huge customer base and solid advertising. You can make a grand a day but you might be doing twenty jobs a day to get that. Especially in our market.... competing with swingle and davey with spraying is next to impossible.

IPM is more of a niche thing right now and people are buying it, I prefer to sell fewer big jobs than 100 tiny spray jobs. Get a bigger chipper, bucket truck, skid steer, or something else instead of a spray rig.
Just my opinion.

 

[Kottonwood]

Just another note..... I know of at least one company doing pine beetle sprays for 10 dollars a tree. Think you can compete with that?

 

[chief116]

Spray rig. With spraying you usually have repeat customers on a program every year. Including several applications a year unlike removals and pruning. Spray crew consists of only 2 guys making it more cost efficient. offering a broader perspective of tree care will also net you more customers.

This! I never really knew anything about plant health care, started with a new company a few years ago with a developing plant health care "division" and i got my spray license to be a back up for winter moth season. 2 of us (during my training) were making my boss 5 or 6 times matierial cost per day, and were earning very close to $200 per man hour in a 1985 Ford. Our new spray rig is already paid off after 3/4 of a season. If you have the knowledge, or can fake it real good, and the client base, it can be a great thing. People will spend hundreds to save a tree.

 

[Bigus Termitius]

This! I never really knew anything about plant health care, started with a new company a few years ago with a developing plant health care "division" and i got my spray license to be a back up for winter moth season. 2 of us (during my training) were making my boss 5 or 6 times matierial cost per day, and were earning very close to $200 per man hour in a 1985 Ford. Our new spray rig is already paid off after 3/4 of a season. If you have the knowledge, or can fake it real good, and the client base, it can be a great thing. People will spend hundreds to save a tree.

Fake it real good?? Really?

 

[Slvrmple72]

If ya can't dazzle them with details... baffle them with bullchit! NOT!

My buddy, ISA cert.arborist and very good climber, started building his pesticide/ spraying side of the business about 2 yrs back. He has a spray rig in the back of his 3/4 ton pickup and is making a nice return for his efforts. Yes, it has been a little bumpy what with pricing chems and competing with larger companies but just as his pruning and tree removal side of things has grown so has this.

 

[chief116]

Fake it real good?? Really?

Guess i won't try to keep it light with the humor. I don't the know the poster from adam, don't know what hes qualified to do. If he thinks he can sell the work without looking like an ####### in front of clients, he should get a spray rig. Its a great investment. If hes a meathead that can only rev a chainsaw and not talk to people about what he sees in the trees, he should get a bigger chip truck or a log truck to make it easier.

 

[newsawtooth]

Just another note..... I know of at least one company doing pine beetle sprays for 10 dollars a tree. Think you can compete with that?

The Pine Beetle game is a boom and bust industry, there are a few companies that are charging $7-$8 per tree and some others that are maintaining $15 per tree. But for how long? Not much longer in places where the beetle has chewed up all the trees. Less optimistic studies I've read indicate that 10% annual mortality of sprayed stands is average. Assuming a ten year epidemic and 10% loss per year, all that money may not save many trees...But I digress because I'm preaching to the choir, Patriot.

There is no question that the market will spend money to apply pesticides and fertilizers. And other posters are right in that it is difficult or impossible to sell things they don't believe in. Part of the pressure for me is from my customer base who ask if I've started spraying yet. So it is something I'll have to think over some more. But I sort of feel like I can get behind IPM which requires all the tools including pesticides.

Thank you for your input.

 

[Bomber]

From experience during the 90's Woolly Adelgid was killing alot of Hemlocks in CT. Customers who were already on a Dormant Oil program had plush Hemlocks while their neighbors Hemlocks were dead. The customers that got on the program after their trees were severly infected with the Adelgid got deep root feeding along with the spraying. Their Hemlocks recovered from the program and they were believers. The company was running 3-4 crews a day grossing $2000+ for spraying and more for deep root feeding per crew.

People who value their landscape will spend a lot of money making their lawn healthy, applying fertilizer and pesticide, they will also pay to have their trees and shrubs healthy as well.

 

[Kottonwood]

You're right about that with the IPM. It requires all the tools and then some. But, it is not just a spray truck, it is a PHC truck. If you have some cash to invest start thinking air compressor, airspade, fertilizer injectors, augers, etc......... you get that air spade and I'll even send you some work. Keep the spraying to a minimum. I think a lot of these companies sell spraying even though they know it is worthless.

I have done many a hybrid cottonwood removal in the past where the tree was clearly infected with cytospora canchor and the whole center had died out....... customer tells me Davey told them it needs two 80 dollar spray jobs and it'll be fine.

When you're at it get all the right tools for planting! Planting is easily the most profitable parts of my business hourly ....... as long as the tree doesn't die, since I give a warranty. It is so easy to sell a new tree too, no one wants to say no to planting a tree!

 

[Kottonwood]

Bomber I love the signature.........

 

[mattfr12]

Spraying is lucrative, especially here in CO.... in my opinion immoral. I know of some companies pulling a grand a day per spray truck.

I have a mostly organic phc program, when organic ipm techniques aren't possible I will use a contained system like root injections......... if we can't save the trees with that we remove and replace..... also profitable. Though you don't get nearly as many customers that way.... most are happy to spray chemicals where their kids play, I don't get it. Our program is more expensive and I tell customers that right off the bat, I will even tell them exactly what other companies would charge to spray it and I tell them that the spraying will most likely work and save their trees. Most customers around here are open to my ideas if they have the money for it.

In my opinion PHC is real tough to get into unless you have a huge customer base and solid advertising. You can make a grand a day but you might be doing twenty jobs a day to get that. Especially in our market.... competing with swingle and davey with spraying is next to impossible.

IPM is more of a niche thing right now and people are buying it, I prefer to sell fewer big jobs than 100 tiny spray jobs. Get a bigger chipper, bucket truck, skid steer, or something else instead of a spray rig.
Just my opinion.

With emerald ash borer moving around up here some spray rigs are bringing in some big $$ we don't advertise it just offer it as a service to already established client base we use a 500 gallon skid with a honda motor that we can slide in and out of a truck was pretty cost effective to do. instead of setting up a whole rig.

using stuff like harpoon and merrit can get costly when you see how much you actually have to apply. for say a large ash tree and i think its only good for 6 months. when you go through bartletts program theirs a confidentiality agreement that has to be signed notarized all that good stuff before you see how they make (not sure exactly what they make) use and apply their chemicals.

 

[mattfr12]

I've reached a crossroads. What is the most efficient use of capital with the best ROI? Developing a PHC program or buying more equipment for physical tree work? Basically a spray rig vs grapple truck or bucket truck. I can't do both right now, so if you were to chose one, which would it be? I have a pesticide license but I have reservations about doing it, my own hangups really. But if the ROI is compelling my fragile, artificial and mostly misguided ethics can be shelved. Thanks for any and all input. That is all, carry on.

The answer to this question only you will know a spray rig for me may make $$ but tank for you. all depends on your market and what direction you wanna drive your company in. if i knew what i did now i would have done some things differently that would have saved me $$ in the long run but the same plan could tank for you.

wich truck is gonna leave your yard the most? is the big question.

after getting our first knuckle boom our bucket truck is used as a chip truck basically now why cut and drop when you can lift it right to the chipper? ill probably sell my forestry unit and just keep a rear mount. the boom has gone up maybe twice in the last two month and we work 6-7 days a week. the knuckle boom works all day pretty much we don't use garbage cans anymore use bags that have lifting points on them kinda like the basters waste management offers.


so lets just say you have a decent client base and wanna be more profitable at tree work a bucket needs to come before a grapple. a grapple truck won't make the work of cutting down the tree easier only the clean up.

i would say bucket before grapple.

 

[lxt]

Ive thought about the PHC & spray/fert side of the biz.....But, every grass cutter/landscaper offers some form of it & it is laughable to say the least.

these guys have a pick up with lowes granular spreaders & some scotts fert in a bag........thats their fert program & to save a shrub?? why they`ll plant a new one by selling the HO on the fact that their infected shrub/tree(ornamental) will need an expensive regiment of treatment.........so replace it for the same cost...blah, blah, blah...

many of these guys dont even have a license!!!! & if you have to compete against Davey or Bartlett..........goodluck!!!





LXT.....................

 

[mattfr12]

Ive thought about the PHC & spray/fert side of the biz.....But, every grass cutter/landscaper offers some form of it & it is laughable to say the least.

these guys have a pick up with lowes granular spreaders & some scotts fert in a bag........thats their fert program & to save a shrub?? why they`ll plant a new one by selling the HO on the fact that their infected shrub/tree(ornamental) will need an expensive regiment of treatment.........so replace it for the same cost...blah, blah, blah...

many of these guys dont even have a license!!!! & if you have to compete against Davey or Bartlett..........goodluck!!!



LXT.....................

Ya the big guys are hard to compete with in imperial i think bartlett has 4 500 gal tankers and davey somewhere in the same i know they move everday.

thats why i just went the cheap root and put a 500 gallon tank on a skid hose real motor and all is in a removable unit. we built it pretty cheap a couple grand. works really well. i welded tie downs in the back of a dump truck and clip her in and go.

 

[newsawtooth]

From experience during the 90's Woolly Adelgid was killing alot of Hemlocks in CT. Customers who were already on a Dormant Oil program had plush Hemlocks while their neighbors Hemlocks were dead. The customers that got on the program after their trees were severly infected with the Adelgid got deep root feeding along with the spraying. Their Hemlocks recovered from the program and they were believers. The company was running 3-4 crews a day grossing $2000+ for spraying and more for deep root feeding per crew.

People who value their landscape will spend a lot of money making their lawn healthy, applying fertilizer and pesticide, they will also pay to have their trees and shrubs healthy as well.

Thanks Bomber, that is sort of what I was looking for is success stories in regards to applications that worked.

Matt, I would be running a rig like yours, just a 1 ton flatbed with a skid mount unit.

Matt and LXT have you had a look at some of the spray contracts from large companies and the like lately? I've looked at similar companies' contracts around here and was struck by the number of applications. In some instances they were prescribing treatment for pests that the hosts did not get. Or multiple applications of the same broad spectrum pesticide that is rated to last a year. And on the fert side it's nitrogen, followed by inhibitors, a sort cats to get the mice, dogs to get the cats, bears to get the dogs thing. My hope is this is not as rampant as it appears. The companies whose bids I've looked at do very well. Can one be successful with a program that is a little more honest and less inclined to spray and charge because the customer doesn't know any better?

 

[lxt]

newsaw, I havent really paid attention to that side of the trade........I know that the Bartlett Arborist rep will try & sell HO`s on unnecessary work, Imagine that they would do the same in the PHC/Fert. side to?

Davey is a different story around here........the Gibsonia office outside Pittsburgh does most of their residential applications & Im telling ya they`re cheap!! however thats the lawn division, not sure about the tree/shrub section!

sad thing is most guys dont know they`re running illegal with that 500 gallon tank on their flatbed dump.......better have a tanker endorsement, depending on what chemical & the RQ ya might need or should have for arguement sake a hazmat endorsement along with MSDS papers, hazmat response guide, spill kit, gallon meter ticket(s) & meter must have state seal from weights & measures applied on it with inspection date!!! also applicators license, hypersensitivity list & BU# displayed on truck!

these are some of the reasons I never got into it, even alot of the bigger companies dont comply.....but thats on the driver if they get caught...........I have both OH & PA licenses from Dept of Ag, OH is a much nicer state to operate in than PA!!!!

Just be careful & know the law & the Label............after all the label is the law!




LXT...............