Ash tree question

[treeme101]

Hello, I am moving a post over to this forum to see if maybe I can get some help and input, thanks much!!!


REGARDING- Significant signs of ash borer damage, red or lillac We have a tree on a property, it is an ash tree, full grown and about 15 years old. It was cleared in 09 by a very respected arborist as being healthy and an asset. I like the tree, not crazy about it, I think it had a bad year last year looked a bit off. A competing arborist VISITING ( they both sell) said it had "significant" ash borer damage this was last OCT.
So we are a bit confused, I looked up this infestation and have to say I saw absolutely no signs of this type of damage on the trunk, no holes etc last summer. So what are some other signs and how can we go from very healthy to extreme borage damage in about a years time. Other than it looking a bit lack luster last year in the canopy, which could have been from anything I dont know what to do now.
The second person is trying to sell another tree and it upsets us he would not be truthful. Since we have significant work available on our properties we want honest people of course that help us get the most for our money. We would prefer to not replace a tree if it is healthy clearly. Is there an optimum time to diagnosis borers? He saw the tree when it was dormant.

 

[Capt. Blye]

Please note that I am not an arborist.

All the information regarding diagnosis of ash tree infestation with EAB is available to you online. ie. Google/You Tube I would sit here and list them all to you, however, it would be more beneficial to you to see the pictures and read verbatum the infomation available. Cost effective treaments are also available to the homeowner over the counter if you choose to attempt to save it. (The larger the tree the harder this will be if infested) There isn't any harm in going with some fertilizer around the base of the tree regardless.

I hope you come to some conclussion with regard to the alledged lack of "integrity" on the part of your local arborist. As in any profession, there are some rotten apples in the barrel. What ever the case may be, don't be too judgemental or anything, at least till you have all the facts.

Again, Google knows everything there is to know.

 

[rb142]

That's pretty much how it works. One year the tree will look fine. The next year the canopy will be thin. One more year and the canopy will be pretty much gone. There often aren't a lot of other signs. The bark holes can be really hard to see, and may be higher up. The tracks are a lot easier to see if you pull back some bark. The tree has EAB for a couple years before it shows the signs. By the time you see what you are seeing, it is way too late. Not to mention that given your locationyou can pretty much guarantee it has EAB. Count yourself lucky to have had it last this long, but it's a dead tree standing at this point. You can look up lots of info and pictures online, but the loss of the canopy (and the context) pretty well narrow it to EAB.

I don't think either of your arborists have been deliberately dishonest with you. It probably did look fine when the first guy looked, and the second guy probably is right about its condition now.

 

[treeme101]

Well first of all thank you very much for this input. I apologize I did not make this clearer, EAB isnt in my state yet, he said it has a different type of borer which is ash or lillac and he did not say which one it was just that it was one of those. Also, I have been told that this are easily treated with good results unlike the EAB, which, yes I have been reading up on which looks pretty nasty. So with this less vigorous type of borer what visible signs could be seen in OCt to present time and should I be putting something on the tree right now? thank s again.

 

[ATH]

....EAB isnt in my state yet...

First, I think I'd echo the couple of previous posts. But here are my thoughts (some repeating what others have said):

A) I wouldn't say that "it isn't there" with much certainity about any state in the midwest (which state are you in?). By the time they "find" it by scraping bark at eye level, they are 3-5 years behind the infestation.

B) It can be tough early on to tell if a tree is infested by EAB or if there are other stresses impacting the tree. That is, in part, because the infestation starts in the top of the tree. Again, by the time the infestation is "easy" to find, the tree is in bad shape. The most effective way to tell if you have EAB is to strip bark off, but this is destructive to the tree. If you know there is a significant branch that is dead, I'd be peeling bark off of that branch.

C) You said the tree is 15 years old, right? My recommendation (without even seeing it) is to replace the tree unless you have some extra emotional attachment to the tree (memorial tree type of thing). EAB will[/] spread rapidly. Treatment is not cheap...and while there are early promising results, the research is still very young to say it will be effective for the next 25 years. If you choose to treat the tree, you will have to treat it forever - skip one treatment and it was all for waste. Having said all of that, I have clients with whom I have shared the same information who have 15 year old trees and they still elected to have their trees treated...so you wouldn't be the first to go that route. But, the sooner you replace it, the sooner you will have a new tree started that won't pull money out of your pocket every year (assuming you pick a good tree and it is planted somebody who knows what they are doing).

 

[treeme101]

Thank you. Could we just hypothetically go with what he said, which was it had the other types of borers, not EAB, the lillac and red type, I understood these could be treated easily. Is that true or false? Take EAB out of the equation for this scenario. thank you

 

[ATH]

Great question.

The boring insects are generally most effectively treated with systemic insecticides.

First, these systemic insecticides are delivered to the pest through the vascular system of the tree. If the tree is badly stressed, that vascular system is not able ot effectively transport the insecticide - meaning it will not work well.

Secondly, neither of these insects are capable of causing significant detriment to the tree all by themselves. That means if these borers are attacking the tree, there are most certainly other problems. Treating a secondary pest without addressing the primary stressor is a waste of money (at best). What are the underlying problems that caused the stress weakening the tree enough to allow these to gain a foothold?

Additionally, it is very important to note that one of the more common treatments is a chemical called imidacloprid (sold under a bunch of different labels). Imidacloprid does pretty well on beetles, however it is useless against Lepidoptera (moths and butterflies). Lilac borer (also known as clear winged ash borer) is a moth. While there are other pesticides that will control both redheaded ash borer and lilac borer, they are all more expensive than imidacloprid... So before embarking on a treatment regime, it is kinda important to know which pest it is not just: "readheaded ash borer OR lilac borer".

Finally, I understand why you want EAB out of the equation to get a more clear answer to your immediate circumstance...I think it is blindness to proceed as such. It IS part of teh equation. Maybe it is not there yet, but it will be within a few short years. Use that information in your decision-making equation. If you are not going to commit to a permanent treatment plan in 3 years for EAB, then don't bother treating the lilac borer (or whatever) now. If you are going to commit to treating, you had better be sure to figure out what is buggin' the tree now (both the borer and the primary stressor) and get that addressed before the green beetle comes raining down because it hits hard and the weak may not stand even with a lot of help.

 

[treeme101]

Awesome answer, now it all makes total sense. I think I just had too many overlapping scenarios, I had an arborist look at it today, he said he saw no boreage damage at all, nothing. Do people ever post pictures of the tree here or is that frowned on? Incidentally, I really want to thank you for taking your time to make this clarification, and thank everyone for their help.
I will treat the tree first once i can make sure it needs it, because it may not hopefully.

 

[ATH]

Posting pics is fine (encouraged by some!) just don't make it really big.

 

[pdqdl]

Thank you. Could we just hypothetically go with what he said, which was it had the other types of borers, not EAB, the lillac and red type, I understood these could be treated easily. Is that true or false? Take EAB out of the equation for this scenario. thank you

I would say that "other" borers is a very likely scenario. I have been observing many ash trees in Kansas City that were 15-20 years old that are all in rapid decline from borers. They are dying off left and right, yet EAB has not been identified in our area.

I don't think that it is wise to presume that any insect treatments are really effective against borers. I have been reading studies on different insecticides, and even the best and most expensive treatments do not provide 100% control. So no matter how hard you work at control, you are only slowing down the infestation process.

 

[ropensaddle]

I would say that "other" borers is a very likely scenario. I have been observing many ash trees in Kansas City that were 15-20 years old that are all in rapid decline from borers. They are dying off left and right, yet EAB has not been identified in our area.

I don't think that it is wise to presume that any insect treatments are really effective against borers. I have been reading studies on different insecticides, and even the best and most expensive treatments do not provide 100% control. So no matter how hard you work at control, you are only slowing down the infestation process.

I am certain if they had anything that would worked well, it would be being utilized. I would believe something systemic and pest specific to have the most promise. I guess Ash will end up like Ulmus Americana before it's all over. However; we have learned from the past that mass insecticide use don't work.

 

[jefflovstrom]

Exit hole's. What do they look like?
Jeff

 

[ropensaddle]

Exit hole's. What do they look like?
Jeff

looks pretty bad imo.View attachment 171084

 

[pdqdl]

Holy cow Rope!

I haven't ever seen a picture of the S-shaped galleries left by EAB. No wonder they are so fatal.

Jeff: "D" shaped exit holes; I have never seen one in person. They're not in KC yet. If all the ash trees around here keep dying from other causes, the EABeetles will starve to death when they arrive. I suspect you were asking a rhetorical question, anyway...

Best "dying ash" diagnostic page I have found: Emerald Ash Borer in Wisconsin

It has excellent photo's of the galleries and exit holes of several borers.

 

[PJM]

Woodpeckers? Here in NY we are finding that an increase in woodpecker activity on ash trees is highly associated with EAB infestation.

Ash/lilac borers are big and their galleries and exit holes are usually very noticeable.