Better Hinge Support

[TheTreeSpyder]

Originally posted by Dobber
Limb Hidging
while hinging a limb around, if I think the wood will not hold I tie the end of my rope around the limb I am cutting about 6 inches after my cut leave about 2 feet of slack and give a wrap and a half before my cut, this stops the limb from taking off ( if it breaks clear)and will still alow your rope to act as hinge wood. Once the limb is where you want it unwrap your rope from the stub and finish your tree.

i try to think of my hinge as that short piece of line (with no slack, and pulling from above), and give it more support from both the compression and tension in the hinge, then cut thru that support at finish; as the quickest way to 'untie' that safety support.

i think that sweeping a limb sideways on a hinge is one of the best exercises in flexing a hinge in a direction against an OffSide pull on the hinge there is. Usually on a smaller scale, and at an extreme leveraged position of pull sweeping a near horizontal around this way can give plenty of lessons, strategies found powerfull here will work in other less leveraged circumstances to scale. In felling, that OffSide pull would be from a side lean, in sweeping a limb sideways, the pull is simply down; but the same mechanichs IMLHO. So as one observes and polishes this, most of the same lessons can be put to felling and then back. i think recognizing that connection helps the learning curve for both, by extending their learning periods to what is already there; as well as dynamnically by reinforcing with more depth to these forces by showing them so pervasive for as the same under different conditions.

Part of the support of the load by the hinge is from compressing the fibers under 'lean', and where this position of compressed fiber is allowed to be, for it is the pivot of support against gravity. Lengths and angles from this point constitute leverages of support against load across this pivot.

The rest of the support for the limb on the hinge is from the stretching fibers most opposite 'lean off path' across the pivot. i believe using these 2 points in the hinge to maximize support can widen and safe'n the possibilities of success with the limb etc.

i think the tapered design in hinge allows maintaining leverage against gravity pulling your spar off your chosen path; while at the same time, releasing the leverage that keeps it from going to your chosen path. Most things are off balanced, (or i'd like to pull off me etc.); whereby i assume i'm slanting the bar on BackCut to simply do this before seeing work. i think sweeping limbs sideways really shows forward these principles that work in all things.

Orrrrr something like that!
:alien:

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

@ TreeB*zz i posted a spreadsheet that calculates/shows the changing leverage load on the hinge, by the tree being in different positions of tilt on the hinge. If before the faces meet , the leveraged load of the tree exceeds the leveraged support, TearOff occurs, control over the important components of force of speed and directiona re totally lost.

After looking at the humongous rising leveraged loads a tree puts on a hinge, and wanting to keep as much control over that as possible i seek to maximize support; especially when i can use strategies requiring no more time or tools, once i get the hang of it. Especially if these examinations can be used at any angle etc. in all different aspects of cutting- felling, rigging, bucking, craning etc.; because they are ruled by the same properties; this also gives me the advantage to gain understanding in hinging in felling etc. as i'm bucking logs, finding the common denominator of ruling principals etc.

Nature can be very helpful, if you allow it to work in your favour!

Hinge Forensics Thread

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

The pivot point of compressed fibers closest dictates the leverage the tree has against the hinge, as well as the available hinge leverage to fight the tree against a side lean. As in any 1st class lever system, moving the center pivot compounds the power of your decision to do so, by taking leverage from one side and giving it to the other against it. This is this property in action.

Nature will take automatically what you give her in the hinge, and use it the best and most leveraged way she can. If you don't give her the maximum tools for the job of controlling the side lean, she will make do as can, to the bitter end. But in the torn fibers left, you can see the direction nature reaches for a better position of her 2 tools: compressed and stretched fibers.

Nature will forsake extreme force on the rest of the fibers left in hinge, and just extremely compress and stretch best positioned ones. In the torn hinge left you can see nature reaching for a more extreme leveraged fibers where she wants them, zealously grabbing and clawing at any she can use more efficiently.

Even though a lot to be said about the stretched fibers, we can have a hinge without stretched fibers. By replacing the stretched fibers with an overhead low angle line pulling load of horizontal spar back into the it's 'pocket' we can have compression in a moving hinge, for we must have the element of compression to be a hinge i think.
Hinge Pocket Pressure Rig Theory Thread

We can read what nature needs to work best, and and plot to give her the best we can from stump area. Pivot placement should be plotted not hap-chance; that is what is meant by pivotal...

Orrrrr something like that!
:alien:

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

i've hear told, of a story of olde;

It seems all the engineers at a factory, couldn't get the main machine for the whole works to run and not beat itself up and break down anymore. Finally they called this ol'retired boy that always seemed to have good L.U.C.K. (Labor Under Controlled Knowledge) with the system.

The next day he shows, a lil'late, wasn't used to getting up early anymore. He walks up to the spanned out blue prints, that had been poured over, things adjsuted for 8 mos. at tremendous cost, and loss of income from the machine not running at peak efficiency; when in fact it did decide to run. After, some grunting, page turning, head shaking and some disbeleiveing smiles, counted on his fingers; then placed a red X on one spot on the frame in the blue print, and said to move the pivot from where it was, to that point. Packed up and went home, having got a drink of coffee on the way out,slowed him down, so the visit lasted 15 minutes.

They called for the next 3 days, praising him; so he sent a bill for $15,000. The accountant said he thought that, that should be itemized. the next day, the bill arrived again: Cost of ink $.01 + ost of knowing where to put check mark $14,999.99. The owner ordered it paid immediately.

The placement of the pivot, is pivotal; especially in heavy and or large things.

The proper placement of the pivot is one of the things that can take the impossible and make it gracefull easily.

Even though i beleive in the shape of the pulling wood, power from stretching the fibers; we can add push forces too, in the face; but the most pivotal; is the pivot of compressed wood in the hinge that divides the pll of the load from the pull of the hinge fibers. Being, between both the load and the support, the pivot sets the leverage of each, and not individually; it takes the power form the load and gives it to the support and vice-versa; making each change, that much more critical!

Attacking things like this isn't counting pounds necessarily, but changing the relationship between the load and the support. Like each system is it's own lil'ecosystem; that can be balanced and manipulated to different quanities, within that balance.


Bigger drawings, i drop the quality to a .gif file; making smaller file for same pic at some loss of quality.

 

[Gypo Logger]

When making undercuts in limbs and when falling, it is of paramount concern to make sure the undercut is clean. In other words, if the saw kerfs dont meet exactly and there is a bit of overcut (Dutchman), then that will close first and act as the knotch, thus causing loss of directional control.
With a well placed knotch in the limb and just tickling the backcut with the saw the weight of the limb will swing where you want it, at least 35 degrees from it's gravitational fall. Softwoods can be committed even further due to their lightness.
The whole trick is in the placement of an absolutely clean, wide faced knotch.
Should a rope be attached as a friendly persuader, it should be pulled on lightly in it's intended direction as the backcut is gently tickled with a sharp chain.
John

 

[rbtree]

Right arm , gyro.

So you gonna be giving lessons? Competing with Arbormaster guys?

where do we sine up?

 

[Gypo Logger]

Hi Rog, yup, they are lining up at the gate as we speak.
If you guys would like a real laugh, just strap on a pair of spurs on me, it would be like my first day in Kindergarten.
Knopper the Topper, King of all the Choppers.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Gypo is right on not crossing the cuts of course, i do feel there is a place for some Dutchman forces applied, but will go with the usual warning of not in the size and weight in felling. i specifically like a kerf dutchmanin face of hinge on lean side(Usually climbing). So that i schedule a push purposefuly in the heavy side pushing close early/only (pushing the lean to center), as the tapered hinge pulls the same way at the same time.

So instead of the tree riding the hinge pulls, then pushing in the face on closing; i'll go with making the push and pull happen at the same time, early, and against the pull that pulls the tree off course.

i like the word tickle, as like plinking free one guitar thread at a time to get as much hinge left at fall, and as slow a movement (urban)-most strength in hinge/least load from speed. i say 'walk to a point of failure or fold' (or someplace between fall and holde is fholde), but same concept as logging and climbing should be for the theories to be really true.

The rope deal hangs me up though. i think you should pull hard, put force in the power of the hinge machine, still tickle away wood slow; so that the more power in hinge machine comes out to be slow/power and not fast/weak hinge like any other machine.

i think you can force a stronger hinge by forcing the tree over earlier, with more fiber holding same load of the tree. i think pulling on the tree puts artificial load on hinge, then the hinge folds stronger, thus prepping the hinge strength for the increasing leveraged pull of falling. Some pine spaars can be leveraged to the ground on a wide face hinge still holding on to the hinge. In fact cutting a bunch of weight off one of them after might make the trunk spring back up on hinge; unless you notice the breathing/movement as your cutting, and weaken hinge beofre going on. just like your spring poles in felling/bucking.



RB- just sorting the reasons i do stuff, stuff i guess some are borne knowing but i had to pay the BeaST (Blood, Sweat & Tears) for just like you; are ya saying i'm dropping the price too low here? Some of these things i think we have come to do so innately, following what works over time; so that we haven't really tracked waht we do or named these things. i think if you can call something by name, perform it with focus and purpose as you understand the critical concepts; you do better craftsmenship. And pivoting 5 tons of wood , massivley leveraged around , away from lean on a frail sliver of hinge fibers; might take a fine craftsman to carve the one time use machine of the hinge pivot.



Orrrrrrr something like that!
:alien:

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

i think that hinge strength is an equal and opposite reaction to the pull of the tree and any added extras that it competes with the hinge, til'the tree starts to fall. i think that without further cutting, the strength at the point hinge just starts to flex, sets the hinge support strength for the rest of the ride on the hinge. An open face cut giving longer available ride on hinge till the faces meet demanding seperation, and changing tree from falling down to throwing forward. If the strength and flexability componenets don't limit the situation first.

A tree naturally falling from it's own weight, will have less hinge potential strength that one that has push of wedge or pull of line to fake out the hinge and load it extra at point it just starts to flex over earlier like the load it was presetting itself to was heavier. Then it comes over stronger, slower than if the strength set itself, like made for the heavier duty of the bigger tree you told it you had it working. So withthe same exact face etc., the class rating of the hinge is upped!(?). More horizontal trees have the less leveraged lean, so force a weaker hinge, yet have the farhtest to travel to the ground on that hinge! Also, per degree of fall, the increase in loading per degree is more intense, jsut off of pure horizontal. So these situations need the most help with this strategy IMLHO.

The slow fall does 2 things IMLHO, it uses the power of the pull on the hinge to be slow /powerfull from the machine instead of fast /weak and it also keeps the load on the preset strength of the hinge lower, by not invoking such a high speed multiplier on the force on the same pre-set strength hinge.

We use examples of the shear force of felling, hitting higher loads with immense leveraged size and weight, long falls invoking speed, than climber's, but climber's face more situations of the highest leverage pulls (horizontal) on hinge where you don't even expect a felling hinge to hold.

Go for max hinge setup, you can always go for less of the power by using saw, but not more. So starting high gives greatest range of utility and choice IMLHO.

You might want to read Hidden Enlarge Button in Pix ; if you don't know about the hiddedn enlarge button for pix.