Bowline on a bight vs regular Bowline tied in a bight of rope

[preventec47]

The pics can explain. Yesterday I watched a professional tree service take down a big oak tree of about 5 ft diameter at base. They used a winch and they tied a mid line loop on their bull rope for the winch hook to attach to. I observed him tie a regular bowline in a bight of rope instead of the regular Bowline on a bight as taught in the knot books. He said he thought tying a regular bowline was stronger and easier to untie. Take a look at the pics. The pic that has the small loop sticking out is what he tied. The small loop being the same as the tail end of a bowline tied at the end of a rope.

 

[EchoRomeoCharlie]

I used to tie the top one...because one day I needed a midline loop and just tied a midline bowline without having ever really known about it.

I changed to tying it like the bottom one after I read a book and realized I was tying it wrong.

I never had a problem with either being difficult to untie. The 'correct' way to tie it is easier to adjust the two loops even so you get pull on both of them.

 

[ZinTrees]

had to pull a fence out with my brothers tractor a few weeks ago, was using the top one, the tractor broke before the knot, so id say its safe

 

[preventec47]

I think I can see why the regular bowline tied in the bight of a rope would be stronger
because there are four ropes inside one of the knot loops meaning the rope cannot be
stressed as much under hi tension and being wrapped around a small radius. In the other loop portion of the knot, there are two ropes being passed around the pull end of the rope instead of just one so the forces in each would be reduced to one half.
As far as easy to untie, I would think in the bigger knot where the ropes are not wrapped so tight, that it would be easier to grap a knot part and push it open.

 

[TheJollyLogger]

I've always referred to the top one as a bight-ended bowline and the bottom one as a bowline-on-a-bight, to differentiate the two. They both work well, and don't bind easily.

 

[anlrolfe]

Major difference I see is direction of pull. If as mentioned by ERC, mid-span, the second would have a distinct advantage.
The true "on the bite" isn't going to wander with a dynamic load, change in pull direction, and that loop isn't going to magically flip back either. The only way it's coming undone is if you take it apart or RUD, rapid unscheduled distruction

 

[TheJollyLogger]

By the way, the safety blue is showing on that top rope...

 

[preventec47]

The true "on the bite" isn't going to wander with a dynamic load, change in pull direction, and that loop isn't going to magically flip back either.

I would like to clarify what you mean by "wander with dynamic load" and also
dont know which one you refer to as the "True on the bite"
Also, it occurs to me that perhaps it would be possible for the loop sticking out
as the tail could possibly be pulled back through the knot so a caribiner could be connected or a really long loop sticking out could be anchored to the pull line
with a knot or pulled back through the loop toward the pull line as if it was an ordinary yosimite treatment and tied off.

 

[rwmille]

Both are recognized knots.

The top knot is called a "bowline with a bight" in the knot bible "The Ashley Book of Knots" (aka "ABOK"), where it is depicted as knot #1074 - ABOK #1074 in knot-nerd parlance (although Ashley's usage of this knot envisioned the bight "tail" actually being loaded, this name is generally still applied among those who use this as a mid-line knot, especially in the rope-rescue world, which is my primary affiliation).

The bottom knot is called a "bowline on a bight" in Ashley (ABOK #1080).

One key difference is that the "bowline with a bight" can be tied around a fixed object, whereas the "bowline on a bight" cannot. Another difference (as preventec47 observed) is that with the bowline with a bight, if the bight "tail" is continued with a "Yosemite finish", you create a forward-facing loop that can be loaded, which significantly increases this knot's versatility.

Both knots can be expected to have similar strengths when used as "end" knots (two-way load, loop loaded against standing part), because testing and field experience show that overloaded knots generally fail at the first tight-radius bend in the knot coming from the standing part (loaded strand), not in the loop itself.

I actually just used the bowline with a bight today to connect a winch cable as the "haul" force for 2:1, 3:1, and 4:1 mechanical advantage systems in 11mm static rope to pull an uprooted stump, and can attest to the ease with which this knot can be untied after experiencing a significant load (in my case today, on the order of 1,000 lbf). The bowline family of knots is nearly unrivaled in their ease of untying after loading, which is also why, when tied in a configuration that has a tail, bowlines should be backed up if used for human life loads or if they may experience cyclic loading and unloading.

 

[Patrick1903]

Both are recognized knots.

The top knot is called a "bowline with a bight" in the knot bible "The Ashley Book of Knots" (aka "ABOK"), where it is depicted as knot #1074 - ABOK #1074 in knot-nerd parlance (although Ashley's usage of this knot envisioned the bight "tail" actually being loaded, this name is generally still applied among those who use this as a mid-line knot, especially in the rope-rescue world, which is my primary affiliation).

The bottom knot is called a "bowline on a bight" in Ashley (ABOK #1080).

One key difference is that the "bowline with a bight" can be tied around a fixed object, whereas the "bowline on a bight" cannot. Another difference (as preventec47 observed) is that with the bowline with a bight, if the bight "tail" is continued with a "Yosemite finish", you create a forward-facing loop that can be loaded, which significantly increases this knot's versatility.

Both knots can be expected to have similar strengths when used as "end" knots (two-way load, loop loaded against standing part), because testing and field experience show that overloaded knots generally fail at the first tight-radius bend in the knot coming from the standing part (loaded strand), not in the loop itself.

I actually just used the bowline with a bight today to connect a winch cable as the "haul" force for 2:1, 3:1, and 4:1 mechanical advantage systems in 11mm static rope to pull an uprooted stump, and can attest to the ease with which this knot can be untied after experiencing a significant load (in my case today, on the order of 1,000 lbf). The bowline family of knots is nearly unrivaled in their ease of untying after loading, which is also why, when tied in a configuration that has a tail, bowlines should be backed up if used for human life loads or if they may experience cyclic loading and unloading.

Wow...that was mind blowing!

 

[preventec47]

Wow...that was mind blowing!

For me the ultimate objective is the best way to connect a winch with a metal hook
to the pull line tied up high in a tree. Alpine loops failed for me so I looked for a hardware solution that does not require any knots and belive I have found it by using
a 3/4" shackle sort of like a porta-wrap. Before that I was going to try the Artillery Man
Loop knot and maybe this Bowline in a bight with a yosemite finish.... But I think I will
see how the shackle works first. It should help preserve the rope as well.

 

[TheJollyLogger]

For me the ultimate objective is the best way to connect a winch with a metal hook
to the pull line tied up high in a tree. Alpine loops failed for me so I looked for a hardware solution that does not require any knots and belive I have found it by using
a 3/4" shackle sort of like a porta-wrap. Before that I was going to try the Artillery Man
Loop knot and maybe this Bowline in a bight with a yosemite finish.... But I think I will
see how the shackle works first. It should help preserve the rope as well.

To be clear, it was your rope choice that failed you, not your knot choices.

 

[preventec47]

For me the ultimate objective is the best way to connect a winch with a metal hook
to the pull line tied up high in a tree. Alpine loops failed for me so I looked for a hardware solution that does not require any knots and belive I have found it by using
a 3/4" shackle sort of like a porta-wrap. Before that I was going to try the Artillery Man
Loop knot and maybe this Bowline in a bight with a yosemite finish.... But I think I will
see how the shackle works first. It should help preserve the rope as well.

Jolly Loggerr Said "To be clear, it was your rope choice that failed you, not your knot choices."

No I dont think it is clear. But I can add clarity. I had a long enough, strong enough 1/2" nylon braided rope to do the job and at 1500 pounds plus side pull extra tension the alpine butterfly knot jammed hard. I have used the rope for 15 years towing stuck 4x4 vehicles and using nothing but half hitches. The rope did not fail.... The knot failed to untie. I believe there are probably better choices of knots and or techniques such as using stakes in the knot that would have allowed me to untie.

 

[preventec47]

By the way, the safety blue is showing on that top rope...

No it is just INK on the rope.

 

[anlrolfe]

Oooff, more details
I suspect some cumulative shock load finally came to bear.
Knot strength is all about D/d ratio. Doubling up a rope, easing the stress point goes a long way to reducing stress and preserving strength.
Think about D/d when you throw this rope onto a carabiner, a hook or through a clevis
Often times the knots we use or the devices we rig with put us at 50% the rope strength right from the start
And like a chain... it's only as good as the weakest link.

 

[TheJollyLogger]

Jolly Loggerr Said "To be clear, it was your rope choice that failed you, not your knot choices."

No I dont think it is clear. But I can add clarity. I had a long enough, strong enough 1/2" nylon braided rope to do the job and at 1500 pounds plus side pull extra tension the alpine butterfly knot jammed hard. I have used the rope for 15 years towing stuck 4x4 vehicles and using nothing but half hitches. The rope did not fail.... The knot failed to untie. I believe there are probably better choices of knots and or techniques such as using stakes in the knot that would have allowed me to untie.

But it was 3 strand.

 

[preventec47]

But it was 3 strand.

NO IT WAS NOT 3 strand. It is Braided. Looks a lot like the rope showing the bowline knots. There is no rope cover and no separate core. Braided all the way through. whatever you call it.
I once considered buying 3 strand as I was looking as the Massdam Rope Puller
but I wanted more pull and more confidence whenever I might have a tree leaning
the wrong way. So I bought the Wythe More Power Puller. and...... now..... Stable Braid.
But even if it WAS 3 STRAND I would expect a knot to hold and untie for the purpose used after said I had my doubts about the knot in favor of some other
alternative knots or techniques. I believe you were honest when you said you thought the alpine butterfly was best for the mission at hand. Thanks for your help.... Sincerely, I mean it. There are many other tidbits you have offered that
have helped immensely

 

[TheJollyLogger]

NO IT WAS NOT 3 strand. It is Braided. Looks a lot like the rope showing the bowline knots. There is no rope cover and no separate core. Braided all the way through. whatever you call it.
I once considered buying 3 strand as I was looking as the Massdam Rope Puller
but I wanted more pull and more confidence whenever I might have a tree leaning
the wrong way. So I bought the Wythe More Power Puller. and...... now..... Stable Braid.
But even if it WAS 3 STRAND I would expect a knot to hold and untie for the purpose used after said I had my doubts about the knot in favor of some other
alternative knots or techniques. I believe you were honest when you said you thought the alpine butterfly was best for the mission at hand. Thanks for your help.... Sincerely, I mean it. There are many other tidbits you have offered that
have helped immensely

I think once you get your stable Braid and actually start rigging and cutting you'll find you've been overthinking this... just don't overtension those poplars, my biggest fear is you'll end up in a barberchair situation. Get your rope nice and high and just ease them over...

 

[pdqdl]

I've always referred to the top one as a bight-ended bowline and the bottom one as a bowline-on-a-bight, to differentiate the two. They both work well, and don't bind easily.

The top knot is known as a double bowline, and is sometimes used in rescue/recovery to form a triple loop at the end of a rope to put under a victims arms (dangling tail) and on each leg (main loop, doubled).
Both are fine for midline attachment. I rather doubt either offers an advantage over the other when pulling a tree over, except that groundies untying a bowline on a bight might get very confused and get it all cobbled up.

 

[jefflovstrom]

Good reading,,reminds me, my first saddle was a bowline on a bight,,good times, ha,
Good to see all the new guys and all the new post's,
Jeff
It was a beautiful day!