Calling all square filers!

[jokers]

Hi Guys, I know some of you are quite accomplished square filers and I`d like to get some pointers from you. I know all about Madsen`s tutorial, I`m looking for any other tips you could give me such as, what are the most common mistakes the novice filer makes? Or, what`s so darn hard about it anyway? I haven`t tried filing any yet, just got the chain and then found out I don`t have the right gauge bar, but I got one coming now. It must just look deceptively easy. TIA, Russ

 

[sonny]

just courious, have you bought the files yet ? the files that stihl are a little pricey.around $35 per dozen.

 

[Gypo Logger]

Hi Russ, im not convinced that square filing is the way to go for me yet.
I fully understand that it is the fastest for sure in the racing cirlces, but it is not time effective for the one who will probably never grasp it freehand. The more I try, the more I loose control of what Im doing.
To be quite honest, and from watching fellow filers over the last 20 years who made or make their living in the woods, I would say that at least 500 ft. of chain must be rocked and tossed before one becomes a proficient round filer. That actual fileing is just a small part of the whole equation.
Anyboby can start with a sharp chain, even out of the box, but its how you cut, what your cutting, how long you go between filings and how you maintain all other cutting attachments that is more important.
I try to equate filing with playing the violin, this way I can file a 20" wood dull chain in less than 120 sec. with a round file and it cuts just as I want it to.
In the time it takes me to do a bad job on a square chain, I could have cut several large trees down.
Most cutters abhor the thought of filing as I do square chain and this is why they have problems.
It all depends on wether your a round peg in a square hole or not.
Ed Heard tried to teach me and it looked easy, but no way when I got home. He pointed out the 3 angles that are required and showed me how to eliminate one by installing the file in the handle at 45degrees. It just confused me all the more, maybe because I am a lefty, although a proud one. " Lefty Loosy, Righty Tighty",thats how my landlady said she remembered to change lightbulbs.
Anyway, I havent given up hope, I now own Rick's Silvy Razur Sharp square grinder that is off to Walkers Saw Shop for some TLC.
John

 

[Walt Galer]

Howdy Russ,

I assume you got that you file from the outside in with the file handle up approx. 45 degrees. (In actuality, you can not quite do this with most files in the 3/8 chain, since the parts on the opposite side of the chain from the cutter get in the way). I go ahead and hit them just a bit.

There are basically 3 designs of chiselbit files:
The flat style such as Oberg 150, The 3square file that looks like a triangle, (with three sideplated flats on it), and the half flat that looks like an Oberg 150 cut in half longways so it only has two sideplate flats. This allows for a larger flat, and a thinner file to get into 3/8 pitch chain better. Any of them must be 65 Rockwell or better to do the job. This is hard to get and makes the file expensive. Before you buy a file, look down the apex angle and make sure that the corner you have to hold in the working corner is straight. Some files have the teeth on the little flat, out of pitch with the teeth on the larger, so the working corner looks wavey. This makes the file very hard to use, as it plays tricks on your eye as you are trying to hold in the cutter working corner exactly. You will loose a good chiselbit file before you ever wear it out. They have to be kept clean, dry and well taken care of.

FILING:
The biggest problem is putting that corner of the file, EXACTLY in the working corner of the cutter.
If you hold the file too high, you get a wicker bill in the topplate. If you hold too low, you get a beak on the cutter's sideplate. You have to hold the file literally withing .010 inch. (Plus or minus .005). This is the big trick, and what you have to learn. Forget the cutting and filing
angles until you get this right. They will just about take care of themselves after this. (You want to gun for 15 to 18 degrees across the topplate for the topplate cutting angle for normal cutting). The sideplate is kept verticle, which you get by the rotation position of the flats on the file. The little flat that does the sideplate therefore should be straight up.

It requires about 100 hrs of practice for the average person to learn chiselbit filing. That means you donate a lot of chain. It may be more difficult the closer you live to John! It sounds like he gave up. Why on earth would a good house wench stay with a guy who can't file?

Regards,
Walt Galer

 

[Gypo Logger]

Hi Walt, I cant figure it out either why she comes back every Monday. I think my problem with the square filing is that I am very critical of my own filing work. I can get it to cut ok, but not as well as round chisel, because I have difficulty visualizng what I am trying to accomplish. Its near darn impossible to get that sideplate straight up and down, even when I meticulously get the edge of the file at 90 degrees. Add to that making one mistake and the problem is compounded because it is already ruined.in my estimation. Maybe the grinder will set me on the right track.
I would sometime like to go up against your average accomplished square filer with my chain and see who can cut the most wood in 6 hrs. This would be the true test and would bring all other factors into play. If it takes more than 5 minutes to touch up a wood dull chain for falling then I cant see the advantage of learning square filing. I had fun yesterday ripping some Paralam that was 24' long, 18" wide and 5" thick by eye and a chalkline. I was impressed that it looks more like wood than wood does.
Anyway Walt I am eagerly awaiting the chain and have some nice, clean, young, rather soft, 8x8 White Poplar on its way from the mill.
John

 

[kdhotsaw]

square chain filing

Good morning gyro,
Dont try to get the sideplate angle at 90 degrees. we use a 78 t0 80 degree angle down and back at the bottom of the side of the tooth. it cuts faster and you will find the other angles come in easier.
ken kdhotsaw

 

[kdhotsaw]

Round chain vs square chain

John,
Properly filed round filed chisel chain is just about as fast as squared filed chisel for woods work. I think the old axiom of a 15 percent faster cutting speed was for chipper chain as opposed to square chain. the advantage of filing some of your chain with a square file in the woods is it takes a while to get the hang of it. the more you file the better you will get. I've never seen a round ground chisel chain win at a contest

Ken

 

[svrfsvp]

Yo John - did the paralam dull your chain faster than plain wood? Just curious - isn't there a lot of adhesive in that stuff? Not that some wood isn't bad enough on its own - a dry black locust stump once turned my saw into a wood burning tool. Smokey...

 

[Walt Galer]

Howdy John,

Recieved your chain, and funds for festivities at the Frontier. Don, Joe, DonII, and Dawn Ray (our indian princess) thank you. You should see this group. Don, an old cowboy, prarie school teacher, cowboy again, logger (got hit in the head and got smart and bought the Frontier, and still a cowboy ropper at 70 years old. Joe, an ex landing knot bumper, now with a huge pot, slicked back hair and looks exactly what a wild western saloon bar keep is supposed to look like. DonII is a very skinny retired navy nuclear engineer. (fighting TB, and emphysima). Dawn Ray, is Don's adopted Indian (Black foot) granddaughter. Very nice looking gal, but very hard on men.

I set up and started on the chain. Initial grinding the fronts off of the depthgauges, the center/tops out of the tiestraps and drivelinks, and shortening up the cutter rear. Taking about 10 minutes per foot, and I seem none too steady. I don't know whether it is the moosedrool, or whether it has been too long since I did this. I found a couple more good files like the one I sent you, so I'm in good shape.

 

[jokers]

Thanks Everyone

Hi Walt, So I guess that the file exactly in the corner is the most important aspect? I believe Madsen`s recommends just a hair low is better than too high. I follow you on the vertical sideplate causing the other angles to come in right, I can picture the compound angle formed by the fixed planes of the file, and the effect that moving the handle nearer or farther from parallel to the bar would have on the topplate cutting angle and also the inner bevel of the sideplate. If done right, there is absolutely no beak, right?

Hi Ken, a 78 to 80 degree down and back angle on the side plate would give you a lot thinner topplate at the cutting edge right, but wouldn`t it also blunt the topplate angle, making it something less than 15 degrees? You have found this configuration to cut faster than the angles Walt has called out? Is this for competition cutting or general woods work? It seems like the topplate would lose some stay sharp, but I realize that the working corner is most important. By giving up some topplate angle you gain side plate angle that may aid in cross grain shearing I suppose.

What files do you guys like, I bought a three corner and a flat six corner and just by looking at them I prefer the flat because I can visualize the relationship better. I did happen to get one of those wavy edge files Walt mentioned, and at $5 each I thought it to be a little shoddy, but that was all I could get locally. It is made by Villala or something like that. Guess I`ll mail order a couple Oberg 150s unless someone has a better suggestion.

I think I`ve got a good mental image of what I`m trying to accomplish, now my first problem is that I don`t have any dull square ground yet. I think I`ll run out and "dirt" a couple of loops to play with. LOL God I love what this site can do for me! Russ

 

[Walt Galer]

Howdy Jokers,

Yep, You got it about exactly right. If you rotate that file to get 10 degree hook, you have thinned the topplate 10 degrees less than the already 45 degrees the chisel bit file gives. Great for speed cutting but lousy for staysharp. You have to have the chip make at least a 45 degree turn in there to erode the steel out from under the chrome so the chain WEARS SHARP. That's right, the secrect is that the chain sharpens itself for a good while! (My old timer friend once remarked after we complete a 250 cut staysharp test, and the chain was cutting faster on the electric swath machine: "That log files better than I do").

If you compensate to correct the topplate filing angle for the above "foolishiness", the sideplate gets thinned, and the problem is much, much worse, since the working corner and sideplate do 2/3 of the work.

That said, I'll confess, John's chain is going to have 10 degrees hook and about a 20 degree topplate. I'm no virgin.

The advice that you allege to come from Madsen's where the corner of the file is dropped below the cutter's working corner, Is what we call "goofy file" and there is now a file made to do it even. It makes the chain grabby and hungry as heck, and lifts topplates at the slightest excuse when limbing in hard knots. (Vertually a Montana disease, and why I used to field test chisel in this area, which is why I found these woods and now live here).

I can't remember if I mentioned it before, but chisel bit filing is not the best for frozen wood because the cutting edges are too thin, even when the sideplate is verticle and the job done correctly. It is a soft wood filing. Techically, round filed chisel is not the best in frozen wood either, and a lot of the best loggers go back to semichisel, filed slightly down angle, for frozen wood, or in mud season. The Windsor semichisel would actually outcut the industry chisel chains when timed with the stopwatch, in frozen wood! Blastphemy! (It has to be chisel chain or the tree won't fall down, right).

Regards,
Walt Galr

 

[Gypo Logger]

Hi Walt, glad to hear it. I enjoyed your description of your friends in the Frontier, they sound like a good bunch and tell them I said hi. I am smitten now with Dawn, so please send her my love and I will send her a gift as pictured below, plus a Stompin Tom Connors CD. Can Dawn square file or square dance?
For anyone that wants a Walt Galer chain, it must be understood that he is generous at heart, so please dont take advantage of the situation, but rather be generous in turn when you send him your envelope along with your chain. Hell, if he isnt worth 40/hr. he isnt worth anything.
Hi Ken, when I get the grinder back I'll get you to modify a wheel for me and pay you whatever you need to have for it.
Hi Jay, the paralam cut like a dream with the 357WXPG. There was road spray on it but I swept it off and blasted thru 125 ft. of it in about 35 minutes including setup.It took about one tank and I filed once on general principles. For those who dont know what paralam is, it is short for Parallel Lamination which is large shreads of 1/8" woodfibre that are imerst in glue and vibrated to stratify them together before they are compressed, heated and extrueded. It's beautiful stuff and it claimed to be the best inovation in structural wood fabrication in the last 100 years, so I hear.
Jay, you should be holding an 088 Magnum in your arms tomorrow, I sent the bar a day after as I forgot it at home when I took 7 saws to the post office. Tracking # 23 067 737 486 www.canadapost.ca
John

 

[tundraotto]

interesting stuff guys - very interesting. walt why is it that you say chipper chain performs better than full chisel in frozen wood? is this to do with drag in the wood and if it is can it not just be solved with more power and more aggressive raker clearance.

PS. this is one topic i know nothing about - i am lucky enough be able to round file (i am still kinda slow at it) but wouldnt trust myself with a 12" flat bastard and a square chisel chain....:angel:

 

[jokers]

Frozen Wood or Dirty Wood

Hi Otto, it`s the shape of the working corner, semi chisel, with a radiused corner, holds up better in more abrasive conditions. To be honest with you, I don`t know if it`s because of the way the radiused edge cuts or if it`s because the radiused edge has more area doing the work. Maybe Walt or someone else can enlighten us. Russ

 

[Walt Galer]

Howdy,

OK you guys, you asked. WARNING!! The following may be objectionable to some viewers and crosses the border from heresy into blastphemy.


Chisel chain has two fundamental problems. The amount of work that the working corner has to do to establish the kerf width is the cause.

A. If round filed (hook in the sideplate) the working corner is jammed between the wood fibres before the sideplate has sheared them off. This is why the fuzzy side walls on the cut ends, especially in softer wood, and if the hook is greater than 15 degrees. (All references to hook angles are measured from the top plate surface, down the sideplate an amount equal to the working corner radius, or .020 in the case of chisel).

If the wood fibres are frozen together, needless to say, the cutter does not like to be jammed between the fibres, and a huge impact and blasting situation exists leading to early chain failure. Especially true if coupled with thermal fatigued part bottoms, which also occurrs easier in cold weather.

B. If chisel bit filed, the cutting angles are so thin as to leave a vulnerable cutting edge, which easily deforms and therefore dulls quickly in frozen wood, especially knots.

Semichisel chain, filed with 5 degree hook has the ablility to shear the wood fibre before the topplate tries to lift out the chip. The impact loading on the chain is far less and the cutting smoother.

The difference is obvious if you examine the cut ends cut with a sharp semichisel as compared with a "hooky" chisel. The ends will be cleanly cut and free of protruding fibres. If you look close, you will see where each cutter has opened up the kerf, run to the side and then run back toward center leaving a "Plowed" like track in the sidewall. If you cut down into a good knot, push hard fast and stall the saw in the knot, and then lift out the saw, you will see where the cutters have tried to run around the knot, and may have openned up the kerf so much as to leave a ridge in the center! (This is why cutters have to be designed with enough overlap to the topplates to clear the center of the kerf, plus a good bit, according to the cutting characteristics of the particular design). The smaller the saw, the more busy the cutters. A well designed chain is able to use this effect to balance the power of a wide range of saws. This is why the original Oregon 72D was so successful. (The chain nowdays bears no resemblance to the old one. They have changed the cutter design completely)!


If you put exactly the same file position through a chisel and a semi chisel, using the same flat style file guide held exactly the same, do not be surprised if the semichisel outcuts the chisel. This is true with Windsor 50L vs 50A, and also the same in Carlton I believe, although I am not up to date on their product. (I was not overly impressed with the loop I got from John).

Regards,
Walt Galer

 

[don]

Called a couple suppliers to get tools

Told them I wanted to square file a chain.

Ask if they knew of a book and what files to get.

Told me there isn't anyway a person could hand file as good as a electronic circular file.

So they came out and try to sell me a $250 grinder, and $50 in wheels.

Anyone know of a good book on filing listing methods and supplies necessary to file a chain.

 

[dbabcock]

Art and Ken

If anyone really wants to square file then Art Martin is the guy you want to talk to. I'm told it takes years to perfect the technique and it's really tedious work. Ken Dunn also knows how to square file, but would rather work on saw motors. Art and Ken are an unbeatable combination in these regards.

 

[don]

I have read some of thier posts

I have read some of their postings and found it helpful.

I have not done a square filed loop yet.

Would you suggest I buy a premade loop and copy it?

Does anyone know a training guide / manual / video on this technique?

I know Art Martin talked about a manual for filing a hand saw but was never able to find it

 

[StIhL MaGnUm]

Don maybe this will help a little

http://www.madsens1.com/angles.htm

Later Rob

 

[don]

So based on Madsens pics

This type of chain is close to a ripping chain for Outside top plate angle.

Do you acheive the Inside top and outside side plate agles on one filing angle or do you file twice?

What is the plane reference or what is the level spot in reference to the 40 50 % angle on the inside top plate?

Iwould imagine an experienced filer would disagree about there being no "secret " combination