Chipping or CTL?

[ShearHeadMS]

hey guys, figured id go ahead and ask this question, i know that chipping takes alot of cash to get started, and also takes alot of dedication. regular logging down here in MS isnt hard to get into at all, i could easily get started with less than 100k and that will get me everything i need, but CTL isnt a common practice in MS, plus its alot more expensive but i feel you get more done with a good CTL machine vs a cutter, skidder and a loader. iv been in the woods since i was 13, Katrina destroyed alot of trees and they let us kids loose with saws (safely of course). but i really want to know how you guys feel about chipping and CTL, like how good is the chip/CTL wood prices and stuff like that.

 

[1270d]

What kind of timber would you be in? Your timber and markets would influence which route you take. Ctl does good in pole timber. 250 to 300 tons per day is possible, more if you cut long lengths. Chipping will. Offer better utilization, but narrower markets. Better make sure you can sell the amount of tonnage you would produce.

Chippers also use an obscene amount of fuel

It seems like it would be really tough to get a decent system (ctl or chip) for 100k or less. You couldn't in my area

 

[ShearHeadMS]

Oh by no means would I be able to get a CTL system like a Timberpro for less than 100k, I just meant I could buy regular machinery for that, most of the timber I deal with is pine, loblolly and long leaf, I figured a CTL would be great for thinning, and your right chipping is high on fuel, so that's why I was wondering if chips brought more

 

[imagineero]

If you're looking at chipping setups for that kind of money, then budget about the same amount for 'miscellaneous expenses' as you do for fuel. They only last so many hours, and you won't be getting top of the range well maintained gear for that kind of money. You can keep them running indefinitely, but you won't be getting the spares down at home depot. 'whoops, something broke' can easily cost $10k.

Shaun

 

[1270d]

This is true. The cost of maintaining a used harvester and forwarder can come pretty close to the payment on new equipment . Then there's the computers. And service calls. Lots of exotic parts on ctl stuff.

 

[ShearHeadMS]

I'm not to worried about the maintaining part, I've got a lot of experience in the mechanic field and a degree in electronics, I've been talking to a few guys who own timberpros and they say they make the best forwarder, not to mention fecon makes a whole tree chipper to go on a forwarder that can pull a chip wagon behind it, I'm just tired of seeing the after effects of care free loggers and the ruined woods they leave behind

 

[redprospector]

I'm not to worried about the maintaining part, I've got a lot of experience in the mechanic field and a degree in electronics, I've been talking to a few guys who own timberpros and they say they make the best forwarder, not to mention fecon makes a whole tree chipper to go on a forwarder that can pull a chip wagon behind it, I'm just tired of seeing the after effects of care free loggers and the ruined woods they leave behind

If I understand you corectly; You plan on logging, and leaving nothing behind?

Andy

 

[ShearHeadMS]

With in reason yes, I've talked to a few guys who work the way I plan on working and they say its a lot better than having 4 or 5 machines to maintain and repair vs having only 2 machines that can do double the work and have better productivity. It's hard not to leave anything behind, but the biomass plants and mills don't mind the quality of chips down here.

 

[1270d]

I wasnt meaning that you weren't capable of maintenance, it was the cost I was referring to. Cost of parts can be huge on the foriegn machines. (John deere ponsse etc) timber pro probably uses a lot more domestic parts. Do they have a big presence in your area?

Also on the production side, there is no way that a ctl crew could put as much wood on the road in a day as a hotsaw grapple setup. Of course the treelength crew would be larger but nothing can cut wood faster than a saw head. I have chatted with some of the top ctl guys in the midwest and their top production was between 250 and 300 tons in a ten hour shift (clearcut plantation redpine) if this same wood were bunched and fed into a chipper I would guess 500 ton in the same timeframe.

Is this the case in your area?

 

[redprospector]

With in reason yes, I've talked to a few guys who work the way I plan on working and they say its a lot better than having 4 or 5 machines to maintain and repair vs having only 2 machines that can do double the work and have better productivity. It's hard not to leave anything behind, but the biomass plants and mills don't mind the quality of chips down here.

I was just thinking of the quality of the soil deteriorating over time. Maybe it works different where you are.
Around here if the dirt's going to grow the next crop of trees the slash needs to go back into the soil. Farmer's do it with the stubble, but they get to do it every year.

Andy

 

[1270d]

I've always wondered about that red. There has been a push in the last few years to use the whole tree. I have asked a couple foresters about this. It seems like the brush left would provide the ntrients for future generations. I asked if after a few cycles of whole tree utilization there would be any growing soil left. T. There was no answer.

 

[redprospector]

I've always wondered about that red. There has been a push in the last few years to use the whole tree. I have asked a couple foresters about this. It seems like the brush left would provide the ntrients for future generations. I asked if after a few cycles of whole tree utilization there would be any growing soil left. T. There was no answer.

They may not have given an answer, but there is one. Sometimes what's best for the bank account isn't what's best for the land and future generations.

Andy

 

[1270d]

That's kind of what I figured. Most of my jobs the brush is used for a driving mat anyway.

 

[ShearHeadMS]

I think I see where your comeing from now guys, I don't mean to take every little stick and run it through a grinder, I just don't want to leave the woods in a horrid wreck like my farm is now, I agree completely about leavening some slash and other things to rot, but down here they pile up everything and burn it, and trust me when I say it never burns all the way Down. What I would like to do is have a small operation that will do a great job and not leave the land owner with a huge mess

 

[hammerlogging]

let me re-direct you to the harsh realities.

$/ton to produce

$/ton delivered.

If there is no premium for real or perceived advantages of CTL, how ya gonna swing it?

 

[hammerlogging]

That's kind of what I figured. Most of my jobs the brush is used for a driving mat anyway.

It is typical for whole tree crews to grab a grapple full on each turn from the pull through and carry it back out to the stand, no issue, redistributes the brush (nutients) and good for operating on. Takes care of lots of said landing mess

 

[ShearHeadMS]

Good question, when I first started cutting wood it was just me and another person, we worked part time selling hay to build up just enough money to pay for fuel and a new 10 ton trailer. We begin clearing the 20 of mixed pine and hardwood using nothing but a 440 sthil chainsaw, a wore out Massey furgason 1130 with a rigged loader, and 1989 ford F350, I would fell the trees while he bucked them, we would cut, buck, and skid the trees mon-wed, then haul Thursday- Saturday. We had no real over head and no demanding payments. So I personally think if I can buy a new machine that will do it all in one, with just myself running the machine, vs having to buy a feller, skidder, and loader, and paying men to run the machines, I think I can do pretty well with small to mid sized thinning jobs by myself, then add chipping if it goes well

 

[imagineero]

Maybe you could take the top soil out too. Being organic and full of nutrients it probably has value to landscapers.

 

[1270d]

Timberpro makes a machine called a combi. Maybe it would be interesting to you.

 

[ShearHeadMS]

If been looking at a timberpro 840, and looking at the fecon rtc22, and I'm sorry if I come off as a little dumb with CTL stuff