Co-Dominant pines

[JJackson]

Lately at work the Utility company has been requiring us to remove co-dominant leads that could fall on the lines or remove the whole tree. We look for narrow angles and heavy leads. I am aware that this is a failure point but sometimes think the company is going a little too far and am seeking information on what other utilities are doing or just an opinion. We prefer to get them when they are small but because of past practices there is some large ponderosa pines with co-dominant stems.

 

[P_woozel]

Though it may seem aggressive, from a sound mangement standpoint it seems reasonable and cost effective to seek out poorly structured trees and remove them from the high value property, remember the utilities have an obligation to keep the power flowing and pretty much abything that doesnt meet that criteria could be considered negligent. Hopefully soom replanting with better native species is also part of the plan. :umpkin:

 

[Nickrosis]

Both of your have excellent points, I'd say. The real part is what decisions are actually being made. Are they being prudent, or are they overreacting? Hard to say on the Internet.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Sub-dominate one, catch it earlier. Perhaps end up removing sub dominated over time.

Less dynamic tissue lost per service. The eventual wound will be smaller than if you did nothing, and removed later. The shifting of balances of wieght, light and food more gradual, and the trunk would get wider based for more support than if target half was removed earlier.

The midline target of neither exttreme.

Wulke found that; though warn of these type of joints in the most leveraged loading angle of close to 3 o'clock; there is problems on the other end of the extreme too. Perfectly balanced 12o'clock verticals have a few problems.
A) they don't get exercised enough because of their balance.
B) 1 degree of movement from used to being at 12o'clock is the most severe loading change, thereby least exercised for most threatening change in loading. (at 1 o'clock the leverage loading is not 1/3 of 3 o'clock, but 1/2!, the change in the laoding from top is so intense)
C) something with lean can be threatened with overloading in basically that direction (some other directions actually relieving loading of 'used to supporting' position); a balanced vertical is subject to pulls in every direction. So gets tested in many directions, can't maximize to any!

He also had some way to alter young codominates too, i think Geofore has the secret recipe?

i think usually the verticals are in protected positions, only getting the worst loading, not the day to day exercise?

Or something like that,

:alien:

 

[Greg]

WOW!! A utility with a thought towards tree care, even though it is self serving I am still very impressed.
I see and remove pines all the time. It is rare when we have co dom's, and I have not seen one that failed during our recent hurricane season. I have an example of a large co dom in a yard about 95" tall and 30' DBH with co doms that are both about 30ft tall, tree did not fail when 2 "normal" pines of the same size and location did. The 2 normals were snaped at about 40ft. I'm not saying that they are safe I advised removal of one stem, but it was very strange that this one made it and like trees of good structure right next to it failed.
Greg

 

[Curtis James]

I think it is next to impossible to generalize cases in this industry. Each tree is unique, each location different. Soil type wind direction.bah blah blah. Basically though, we have to keep the power going. That's how it was when I did line clearence. They had no type of replanting schedule at all. I think that should be a part of the corporations responsibility. Some day.

 

[geofore]

Responsibility

I think it is next to impossible to generalize cases in this industry. Each tree is unique, each location different. Soil type wind direction.bah blah blah. Basically though, we have to keep the power going. That's how it was when I did line clearence. They had no type of replanting schedule at all. I think that should be a part of the corporations responsibility. Some day.

The proper way to get through to the homeowners of the need to plant the right tree for the location is to start by teaching the children in school before they become homeowners. The utility companies have published booklets on what works but they don't often pass these booklets out to customers (homeowners) that call for line clearance to have their power restored. You have to write and request the booklets. It would be better to give out the booklets to homeowners just prior to doing line clearance in a town. How many homeowners would accually read it? I don't see it as solely the corporations responsibility, The customers that buy the power are a part of the equation. It only works when you have team work. Get the customer to help. The power company is looking at trees that were there before the power lines went in or planted after and the money was not there for the clearcutting of the ROW. Any new homeowner who requests power hookup/or has a power hookup should get a booklet? Anyone FEMA helps to rebuild after a storm that has trees should get a booklet? A mass mailing or carton of booklets for the guys to passout to homeowners before they clear the lines. You are going to ask the customer to sign a release to work on the tree, hand them a booklet to read when you (line clearance guy) ask for their signature. Print it in the town newspaper as a public service. Getting people to read it is the problem. It's teaching the public that is lacking, the booklets just aren't getting to the public. We know what we do, the public is the last to know what needs to be done to get the service to them. This past year of storms up and down the coast was a golden oppertunity missed. Why didn't the utilities mail out the booklets after the storms or print a magazine for the Sunday paper about the need to clean up trees and the right trees to plant near power lines? If this costs a dollar a year more to the customer it is worth it in the long run. Whether your on a 5 year or 8 year cycle, mail the booklets out to the customers every 5-8 year cycle. It would have to be done every generation at least until the customer comes to realize he is part of the equation of keeping the flow of power working. It is NOT just a corporate responsibility. You own a tree service? Why not ask the electric company for a carton of their booklets to send/pass out to your customers? Don't blame the other guy (corp.), get off your butt and do something about it. This is one that gets under my skin. You have customers? Mail them a booklet with the christmas card, it may get them to do something about that tree before the power company does it (more work)
RANT OVER!

 

[JJackson]

I agree whith geofore, thanks for the rant. ITs funny how the utilities will send a buch of other informatinve brochures with the bill but I never see info on tree pruning, as geofore mentioned the utilities wait until they send us in to inform the customers. I have, in the current area I am working, had asked the utility to mail some info to the customers due to the fact that most are summer homes and with written information and pictures it would make discussing the needed tree work with the customer over the phone, they basicly said that is what we are contracted for. Ran into a few co-dominant pines today most had small leads that could be pruned off easily with out to much stress to the tree, the others...I will just have to wait and see.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I would look at the work done by U Fla on codom weakness, though I think they were done on young red maple and red oak.

The problem is not codominance but how the union of co dominance was formed.

If the fibers are joined solidly then the risk of failure is not much more then single stems, if there is a visible seam between the two stems then the risk is higher, if you can see daylight when the tree moves....

 

[JeffE]

I've been in a fair number of pine stands since the hurricanes, and I would say that I've seen a disproportionate amount of stem breakage on trees with codominant stems - especially when you factor out the trees that broke due to weakness from other things, like fusiform rust.

Codominance on most pines is different from that found on hardwoods. Their growth follows patterns that assume the development of a strong central leader, and their reaction wood forms in different ways. So a "crotch" on most species of Pinus is the result of earlier trauma, and it's rare to see one that forms with good attachment.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

I would look at the work done by U Fla on codom weakness, though I think they were done on young red maple and red oak.

The sub dominate thing above is what Doc Gilman U of Fl. talked about at conferance.

Went into the comparative analysis with 'siamesed' trees (ok, that's my term of course) as having same weakness of not allowing fiber across to opposite lean to support best.

i think in an analagy of a normal tree will use all the forces of equal and opposite reaction for the good of the support, at maximum leverage. Codominate, divides the house and against itself. The equal and opposite reaction is now set agianst itself prying apart. Also, bark in betwen the 2 stems pushing against each other (just like it does on excluded bark, only no place for bark to go!); as well as leveraged support reduced. If the codominate was spit evenly in trunk, the loss of leverage is about ~2/3, rather than 1/2 too.


:alien:

 

[Curtis James]

geofore, I fully understand your rant and yes I have literature that I hand out. I was simply saying, for all the trees removed, I feel as though one should be planted. Not the residential aspect, I am talking in the right of ways and what have you. I got away from line clearence. Because I felt as though there was alot more the company I was working for and the power company that subbed us out could have done to communicate with the customers, and employees about proper care, technique, installation and selection ect... I have been off my rump pushing for education. Maybe I was to vague. I fully agree about the mailings. I was simply saying they do no planting for all the removing that is done. We didn't have them sign a release or anything we just showed up and did our work. If there was a problem we left and came back after it was worked out. I am sure it is different from state to state or even town to town. We gave no warning of our rotation or anything. So yes I am for educating the public about what to plant and why. I am also for using growth regulators and getting the million dollar corporations to be a little more responsible.