cut strategies -- best?

[outofstepper]

So now that I've got a small CSM built, its time to start doing damage.
My intention so far is to just start slabbing. Pick a log that'll fit in my
mill and just start slabbing my way through to the bottom.

Thing is, I'm not sure this is the best way to do it. Meaning, will I get
the "best boards" this way?

Plan is to square them up once they're dry.. on a table saw.. so I'm not
worried about final dimensions just yet.

But I don't know enough about wood to know what the "choice cuts" are.

If I cut a 1.5" x 15" board out of the center, including the pith, will it be
any good?

Does just cutting slabs waste wood? should I be turning and flipping the
log? Should I split it two?

Maybe the answers to all these questions are "it depends" -- but if anyone
can shed some light on things to avoid, I'd appreciate it.

The end goal is nice clean strong boards for wood working.

Thanks!

 

[betterbuilt]

I'm borrowing this post for the picture.

I wouldn't have quoted such an old post but I checked your profile and see that you still come around. Beautiful bench! And that joinery you used blows my mind. I've been a custom cabinetmaker for almost two decades and that is among the best joinery I've seen.

I do have one thing that you might watch for in the future when gluing up wide planks like this one. Look at the ends of the boards. See how the growth rings are turning in what looks like a "frown"? I call those "smiles" and "frowns" It's not crucial on a plank the size of yours - around 12 inches or so - but when gluing up it's best to alternate your "smiles" and "frowns". This will help your lumber from cupping in the future. I'm sure you picked the face of your board by the cosmetic appearance. If you ever do a very large plank this way and fail to keep in mind how the wood cups you can run into problems rather quickly.

As you can see from the picture below, you can look at the ends of a board and determine how it will cup. Closer to the center there is very little cupping but the wood will tend to try to cup on the top and bottom, becoming a bit thicker in the middle. I'd say after the amount of time since your project was completed you have a distinct upward bow down the middle like the board right below the middle one in the pic.

Again, beautiful work!

The picture is a good exaggeration of what could happen to your slabs. I would add the center board could split right down the middle.

If You have the time, you could cut the outer boards a little thicker so they don't cup to much.

On some logs I set my rails up level with the pith of the log. there are some logs that's not possible. I don't bother with worrying about what I'm gonna build with a single piece of wood. I figure I have two years before its dry so I have some time.

From your other thread I can say you gonna have some losses milling green logs. I just be sure to seal the ends right away. If you have the option, mill the log parallel to any radial cracks.

 

[BobL]

The end goal is nice clean strong boards for wood working.

What sort of woodworking ?
Fencing
Out buildings
Outdoor furniture
Cladding
Furniture
Fine furniture
Musical Instruments
ETC?

Do you have lots or logs or only a few

Is the log premium or only so so?

How much time do you have to do this?

With a CS mill, in most cases folks with plenty of average logs will just slab the log and resaw later, or 3 side the log into a cant and and peel off boards. The one that goes thru the centre may be so-so but if you have plenty of logs you can sort things out later. Remember the one that goes thru the centre consists of 2 quarter sawn boards either side of that centre and these are potentially the stablest boards in the log.

Most CS millers will just slab a log and keep the straighter flatter boards for the projects that need them and use the other accordingly.

If you want more quarter sawn timber from a log you have to split the log in approx thirds and then cut the quarter sawn pieces out of the outer sides - it's a lot of mucking around and unless its a premium log it's just easier to just mill another log and get the 2 - 3 full width quarter saw boards out of it.

 

[Andrew96]

Not much I can add but to say...for me...1.5" isn't much of a slab. By the time it might twist, will shrink, will have some kind of funky marks on it from your chain...you won't get much. What size would you buy material? I would buy 2" rough, so I try to cut say 2 1/4" just to cover my own screw ups of the surface finish, or anything that happens to it while it's drying...cupping etc.

 

[outofstepper]

First some quick background: I'm out in Europe -- Italy to be specific.
Am an eastcoaster (Philly!) but married out here. Wood is a premium out here.
Not a very big country.. most of it comes from Austria / Germany.

I used to fab metal for a living.. and woodworking is relatively new to me.
Most of the wood I buy costs me an arm and a leg.. and its usually small stuff..
1/2" or 3/4" x 8" wide. I use it for shelves and small tables and who knows
what else. I don't build alot of picket fences or decks.. so all my projects
will end up inside except maybe the occasional bench or picnic table.

Its a hobby first and foremost.

That said we've got a lot of white oak. It sounds like slabbing that stuff is
the best approach?

What I'd like to start on is some cherry and some olive. Neither of these
are very big. and if you buy either one of them you might as well cast
your bookshelf in solid gold.

So there aren't a lot of them.. and they aren't very big.. so I want to get
as much usable wood out of them as possible.

Sounds like I'd want to quarter saw these. Which, to be honest, sounds like
a pain. These things are only about 12"-18" in diameter. That means
quarters are going to be small.

Maybe its time to invest in a bandsaw?

If I split the cherry, say, into quarters.. then alternate on the flat sides,
cutting 1" or 1.5" boards.. it's not going to be very long before I don't have
anything left to rest my CSM on!

 

[betterbuilt]

First some quick background: I'm out in Europe -- Italy to be specific.
Am an eastcoaster (Philly!) but married out here. Wood is a premium out here.
Not a very big country.. most of it comes from Austria / Germany.

I used to fab metal for a living.. and woodworking is relatively new to me.
Most of the wood I buy costs me an arm and a leg.. and its usually small stuff..
1/2" or 3/4" x 8" wide. I use it for shelves and small tables and who knows
what else. I don't build alot of picket fences or decks.. so all my projects
will end up inside except maybe the occasional bench or picnic table.

Its a hobby first and foremost.

That said we've got a lot of white oak. It sounds like slabbing that stuff is
the best approach?

What I'd like to start on is some cherry and some olive. Neither of these
are very big. and if you buy either one of them you might as well cast
your bookshelf in solid gold.

So there aren't a lot of them.. and they aren't very big.. so I want to get
as much usable wood out of them as possible.

Sounds like I'd want to quarter saw these. Which, to be honest, sounds like
a pain. These things are only about 12"-18" in diameter. That means
quarters are going to be small.

Maybe its time to invest in a bandsaw?

If I split the cherry, say, into quarters.. then alternate on the flat sides,
cutting 1" or 1.5" boards.. it's not going to be very long before I don't have
anything left to rest my CSM on!

If I had access to olive, I'd get a band mill, ripsaw, or run 3/8 lopro. If you want to trade I'd be interested in some of those gold slabs.

 

[Andrew96]

Well...if it really is that valuable, what I was thinking is using a thin chain, lopro, cut a really big slab, something I could handle, then using my shop bandsaw to resaw. In other words, Minimize the use of the chain mill. However, if they are not thick, there might not be much to save by doing all that. Will that get you and extra board? Maybe not one that is any good.

 

[outofstepper]

Thanks Andrew -- but does this mean cut them thick then resaw when
dry?

 

[Daninvan]

Olive? Lucky!

I was in France a couple years ago and for fun tried to track down some olive. It seems to be common enough in craft shops and open markets for cheese boards, bowls, and other trinkets, but I could not find anyone who would sell me a piece of olive lumber. I wound up buying a cheese platter to cut up. I was told it is illegal to cut down an olive tree in France, so they get most of their olive wood from . . . Italy!

I would not plan to use a tablesaw for cutting your boards after they have dried. The boards will not longer be flat and it would not be safe to try and rip or crosscut them on a tablesaw. I would use a bandsaw or a sawzall to trim them to what you need, then run them through a jointer then a planer to get them flat and square.

 

[Sawyer Rob]

So now that I've got a small CSM built, its time to start doing damage.
My intention so far is to just start slabbing. Pick a log that'll fit in my
mill and just start slabbing my way through to the bottom.

Thing is, I'm not sure this is the best way to do it. Meaning, will I get
the "best boards" this way?

Plan is to square them up once they're dry.. on a table saw.. so I'm not
worried about final dimensions just yet.

But I don't know enough about wood to know what the "choice cuts" are.

If I cut a 1.5" x 15" board out of the center, including the pith, will it be
any good?

Does just cutting slabs waste wood? should I be turning and flipping the
log? Should I split it two?

Maybe the answers to all these questions are "it depends" -- but if anyone
can shed some light on things to avoid, I'd appreciate it.

The end goal is nice clean strong boards for wood working.

Thanks!

First of all, what you are asking about is called "grade sawing", and it's the ONLY way to get the highest quality lumber out of any log. You can NOT grade saw a log without turning it.

As for waste, you are wasteing a LOT of lumber by using a chainsaw to mill with. Compared to a bandsaw, every 5th board in the log will be turned into sawdust with a chainsaw.

Anyway, learning to be good at grade sawing a log takes years of milling, to learn how to get "max quality" out of the log, and i'm giving you rep for wanting to learn to do so!

BTW, grade sawing starts with "learning" about how to choose, what side of the log to open first!

Rob

 

[outofstepper]

I really appreciate the info, all, thanks.
I'm sure I'll be wreck'n quite a few trees before I start to figure this out.
That's gonna be a lot of benches around the yard!

How about some local wisdom / black magic and folklore?

I've been make'n my rounds to some of the old woodworkers in this area.
I mean old, too. Probably turning 100 by the time I finish this post. Great
guys so far. I think their passion for what they do is what keeps them kick'n.
A six pack in one hand helps to get them talk'n.

To be frank, I've been looking for old equipment.. some old iron .. they have
these great combo planer/jointers out here. So I got to asking about milling
wood.

Not a one of them has ever seen it done with a chainsaw. Most of them
don't even think it'll work.

So here's the craziest number one overwhelming tip I'm getting:

Fell the tree during a waning moon! If "you cut it at the right time"
the wood will stay nice and stable, no checking, no cracking. Most of them
don't even seal the ends but I had one guy mention beeswax only if you
debark the whole thing.

Most of them don't even mill them green. They keep 3 meter logs around
(thats almost 10') for 4-5 years. At that point they get bandsawn to the
project at hand.

now I still plan to follow "the rules" -- chainsaw for now.. stack and sticker..
everything I've been reading.

But its just interesting to hear their take on it. Again, they've been doing
it a long time (I guess that doesn't mean they're doing it right).. so maybe
they have a lot of scrap?

Found it really interesting they all said waning moon.. I didn't expect
that one.

I'll keep you guys posted on my results.
Granted that might mean posting again in 2 years. ha!

Have a good night all.

 

[BobL]

What I'd like to start on is some cherry and some olive.
.
.
.

These things are only about 12"-18" in diameter. That means
quarters are going to be small.

Maybe its time to invest in a bandsaw?

If I split the cherry, say, into quarters.. then alternate on the flat sides,
cutting 1" or 1.5" boards.. it's not going to be very long before I don't have
anything left to rest my CSM on!

Depending on length, 12 - 18" diam split into quarters with a CS mill can be put through a conventional bandsaw.

If you have a lot of these then a BSM or Rip saw would definitely be the way to go.

I agree with Dan about the table saw. A my wood is so hard I use a BS to edge my thinner stiff and a minimill to edge my thicker stuff. I need to make better in-out feed tables for my BS - I'll be doing that as part of my new shed project.

 

[TraditionalTool]

Good article in the most recent Sawmill & Woodlot magazine titled, "Judging a Log by It's Cover".

This is the science of milling, so don't expect everything to be covered in a single article, or that you will know all there is to milling to grade after this thread, it's journey seems as much of an education as any text you will find.

Bruce Hoadley's book "Understanding Wood" has some information on Lumber Classification and Grading that is helpful.

 

[mikeb1079]

Does just cutting slabs waste wood? should I be turning and flipping the
log? Should I split it two?

one issue you'll run into with an alaskan style csm is that a large amount of time is spent to set up the cut. thus, making a top cut, flipping the log, and setting up again takes alot of time. with the smaller logs you'll have access to i'd recommend sawing thick slabs (its quicker and saves lumber) or quartering the log and then investing in a good bandsaw to resaw them with. you'll need the bandsaw anyways for your woodworking. good luck and post some pics!

 

[Brmorgan]

Best time to drop a live tree is late fall after the sap is down; this way it has less to dry out. I don't think I buy into any moon phase mumbo-jumbo. That's for hunters and fishermen, not loggers IMO. But who knows, the world is a wonderful and weird place.

I'm a lumber grader by trade, but structural lumber like studs and timbers, not finish-grade hardwood lumber, which is very different when it comes to grading. But the principles of reading a log when sawing is much the same. Last year I scanned all my grading instruction materials to PDF, and I keep that HERE for people here who might be interested. There's likely a lot more than you might want to know there, but it goes through a lot of stuff you might be interested in like slope of grain, different defects and how to measure them, moisture content etc.

We've had a couple really good threads here about this in the past couple years, I'll try to dig them up for you.

EDIT - found one of the threads over here where I detailed a bit of grade sawing theory:

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=121113

 

[Andrew96]

in typical fashion around here, you've have been giving a week's worth of reading. It's great. I've already gone through the grading info as 'required reading'.
There was some post I think last winter about moon phases too. It was a fun read.

So... I'll assume you are new. A slab to me means, it's a chunk of wood that will still require resawing, so it's a slab..not a board that you are done sawing. Not a big deal, I just assumed that's what a slab was, say a cant split in 1/2...far from done. If I've learned the lingo around here...I slab out a tree into something I can move, or to something I will S+S to dry, then resaw. If I don't have much time on site, I'll slab it out, with a live edge, float it home and carry on, either with the CSM or with my bandsaw. I seal the ends as soon as I get home..same day. I never leave any slabs on site.

I use the rule of 1" per year to air dry (though I use a meter to be sure). If you are going to slab something, and resaw it on a different tool, I'd do it wet as you put it. As BrMorgan has told you though, there are times of the year when wet..isn't that wet.

If you have a bandsaw for your shop..you'll already know your constraints. Mine can resaw 12", has 5HP and doesn't mind wet wood (It's just a baby). I have used an old skil saw to trim the edges of a slab, then run it through my bandsaw. It's then ready to S+S sit for a few years. There are lots of different ways to do it. I don't bring all the different tools some guys do, into the woods with me. Slab it up, hump it out and get it home.

 

[TraditionalTool]

This is a topic that has always intrigued me.

One thing I have read more than once is that you should open the worst face as your initial cut on a log. IOW, pick the face that has the most knots and open that side.

Even if you do so, you still need to decide if you're going to cut on the taper or level the log up, I think the type of material one is milling will dictate that.

Sawyer Rob hit a very important point, that you will need to flip the log to get grade material, if that is what your after.

But how do you actually approach a log from the standpoint of what side you open first, and how you rotate it after you open that first face?

 

[Andrew96]

Wow..Allan..that's an insightful question. I'm eager to hear what the millers in the know have to say. As I can see it (and I'm sure you know), when you start on the knotty side, then roll it. It leaves the lower grade material on an edge, that can be trimmed off for grade...that's one way to do it. But then....which way do you roll it and why? Roll to the next worse side...or to the best side? Cut the taper off first, second? or leave it. I tried to read and understand but haven't progressed enough to know how/why. Hopefully, we'll see soon.

 

[Brmorgan]

Any sawyer I've ever spent time with has always gotten rid of any flares and bells in the log before anything else, unless maybe there was some other unusual mitigating factor. Many times if you take the flare or taper offset off in a live-edge slab or two you can at least get a couple shorter pieces out of them.

You might enjoy watching a video or two of sawyers running a headrig on Youtube. I've sat and watched dozens. This is a really good one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEQOzP-1SCc

He tackles a fairly big log around the 4 minute mark, deals with a good bit of taper on all sides.

FWIW I've never before or since seen a non-vertical band and carriage like that, but I can clearly see the advantages. Much faster and cleaner offbearing. The band-to-carriage tolerance must be insanely tight there though!

 

[BobL]

Thanks for posting that link Brad. Having the log sitting tilted in the carriage like that makes a lot of sense when you see it.

Whilst I agree that turning the log will provide the best possible lumber, when I'm breaking up logs the practicalities of getting a log to sit safely (especially when it's up of the ground) is the first thing that I worry about. The last thing I want happening is for the log to fall off any support while the alaskan mill is still attached.

Because I'm chasing wide slabs, in most cases I try to get the log to sit with its widest cross sectional dimension on the horizontal but this is not always possible. I mill quite a few irregular shaped logs and trimming the taper is pretty common. In extreme cases I tek screw a stand off like this to the narrower end of the log.

Sometimes - when I have log moving machinery available and I remember, when I am about 2/3rd of the way though the log I drop the CSM uprights and make a cut that basically trims/flattens the current bottom of the log and then I flip the log over and start to mill it from the other side. This is a bit of mucking around but helps make the final cuts much easier.