I climb using a bee line prusik and blue streak rope. I've been descending on the VT only. I was just reading the climber's companion to review and keep current (as we all should do from time to time) and I noticed that on pg. 49 it recommends not to descend "solely" on the friction hitch. I've been using only the VT to descend. Am I wrong?:monkey:
Desending on a VT?
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Farmer Ferd
ArboristSite Member
I believe the problem they are concerned with is burn. I have a rescue 8 on my belt and on long descents I clip in on that.
Thanks for the replies, guys. Yeah I figured they are worried about "burn". I never wear gloves when I descend IOT help be aware of the heat. Also, like treeco suggests, a foot wrap. I also carry a figure eight too. But I use mine in a somewhat unorthodox way. I take a shot loop sling and girth hitch my figure eight, put it too my rope and then girth hitch it to my foot! I know it sounds weird but it works for me and I only do this when I'm "loaded for bear" with a large saw and all kinds of "jingle jangle" hanging off my harness. If I want even more friction I can then take a foot wrap with my other foot. Stay safe!
murphy4trees
Addicted to ArboristSite
me too..
The short answer is "no"
the long answer is:
important factors are how much friction is on the overhead anchor (tie in point), how much you weigh, and how fast you come down. When using a friction saver (almost) all the friction needed to control the descent is on the hitch. With natural crotch a lot of friction is on the rope going over the crotch. Other than wear and tear on the lines, the main concern is heat either glazing the climbing line or melting the prussic cord. With advances in rope technology it is a lot harder to melt the prussic cord than it was when the tree climbers companion was written. You are certainly not going to melt the Bee line.. However bee line is known to cause glazing on long and fast descents.
I use HRC and just replaced the last cord after nearly a year of use. It was only showing slight wear. I weigh 175, mostly climb on small natural crotches and never fly out of the tree and take a foot wrap as per treeco's recommendation on long descents. And I don't climb every day.
Big John at 260 lbs using a friction saver will put a lot more friction on his climbing hitch than I ever do. He does a lot of monster removals, using the rope guide to work a spar down. Whe the tree is ready to be notched and dropped he will often descend using a munter on the pull line. It's quick and easy on the ropes as well as saving him the need to pull the friction saver out of the tree.
The short answer is "no"
the long answer is:
important factors are how much friction is on the overhead anchor (tie in point), how much you weigh, and how fast you come down. When using a friction saver (almost) all the friction needed to control the descent is on the hitch. With natural crotch a lot of friction is on the rope going over the crotch. Other than wear and tear on the lines, the main concern is heat either glazing the climbing line or melting the prussic cord. With advances in rope technology it is a lot harder to melt the prussic cord than it was when the tree climbers companion was written. You are certainly not going to melt the Bee line.. However bee line is known to cause glazing on long and fast descents.
I use HRC and just replaced the last cord after nearly a year of use. It was only showing slight wear. I weigh 175, mostly climb on small natural crotches and never fly out of the tree and take a foot wrap as per treeco's recommendation on long descents. And I don't climb every day.
Big John at 260 lbs using a friction saver will put a lot more friction on his climbing hitch than I ever do. He does a lot of monster removals, using the rope guide to work a spar down. Whe the tree is ready to be notched and dropped he will often descend using a munter on the pull line. It's quick and easy on the ropes as well as saving him the need to pull the friction saver out of the tree.
Nailsbeats
Addicted to ArboristSite
I don't know what a munter is, but I descend on a figure 8 off a roped spar. That way I don't have to pull my climbing line down or anything else when I hit the ground.
Slvrmple72
Addicted to ArboristSite
Nails, are you using your climbing line to pull or guide the spar over?
John Paul Sanborn
Above average climber
That looks Like BK's artwork
It is a good quick and dirty rappeling hitch, but even more rope/rope friction then on an Eight.
Using a Petzl ID or a rack is better if you do it often.
Ok I'm learning that I'm "OK" so long as I keep the speed/heat down. Which is what I figured. I just wanted to run it past some knowledgeable folks. I may 'think' I'm 260 but when I step on the scale I'm only 175 lbs.
Oh and muprh, I'm jealous of the trees ya'all get to work with down your way. Up here in the pocono's it's been logged over and over since the first white man showed up non stop. When I get down philly way I'm always in awe of the size of some of those monster oak's and maple's you guy's get to climb and work. My wife get's annoyed when I keep pointing out the car window "look at the size of that one!" Heck, here if something's 30 inches at the base here it's "big".
Oh and muprh, I'm jealous of the trees ya'all get to work with down your way. Up here in the pocono's it's been logged over and over since the first white man showed up non stop. When I get down philly way I'm always in awe of the size of some of those monster oak's and maple's you guy's get to climb and work. My wife get's annoyed when I keep pointing out the car window "look at the size of that one!" Heck, here if something's 30 inches at the base here it's "big".
John Paul Sanborn
Above average climber
There is also the combination of thwm not having many big wind events in the Ohio valley and all that good bottom land things grow on
Nailsbeats
Addicted to ArboristSite
No, rigging line. I have never pulled a tree with my climbing line. Just like my avatar. I put that orange line on for the pull, threw up a pose, pulled my climbing line out, and rode old orange down on the 8.
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Nailsbeats
Addicted to ArboristSite
Thanks John, for the Munter Hitch demo.
Slvrmple72
Addicted to ArboristSite
Nails, just make sure old orange doesn't get too old to lower yourself down on! I like to put my 8 on both ends of my climbing line evened up (haven't run into a tree where 150' isn't long enough ) and zip on down that way. Hoist rigging up before descent and I am good to go!
Nailsbeats
Addicted to ArboristSite
Yeah, I inspect it after every fall, lol.
treemandan
Tree Freak
You got me beat. If I have to wait for someone to rustle up a rope with which I can pull it over with and go down on I won't wait. Just use the climbing line. I can drop a breaker log to keep the rope out of the dirt and really you don't need pull to hard when dropping spars.
I will go down any of my rigging lines of course. They are stronger than my climbing lines aren't they?
Increase friction elsewhere's in system, by placing more on redirect, wrapping legs; also don't hot dawg, be aware of your gear and even take a break on way down, maybe even plot a piece of work on the way down to brake up the drop...
Muenter and 8 can corkscrew line, especially if lots on ground. Best if brake hand is inline with Standing Tension part above friction device/ not cocked to side when descending.
Muenter and 8 can corkscrew line, especially if lots on ground. Best if brake hand is inline with Standing Tension part above friction device/ not cocked to side when descending.
Nailsbeats
Addicted to ArboristSite
I don't use a line on the job that I don't trust my weight on. I hear ya on the breaker, but usually I have a rope up right when I need it and run tight deadlines, no time for a breaker, lol.
John Paul Sanborn
Above average climber
I used to like doing a fast rappel, until I went to the small diameter cord and started burning my fingers while holing the barrel of the hitch. Which, I might add, is a good indicator as to weather you risk melting your line
eddiesimril@aol
ArboristSite Lurker
I am new to the site and hope to be welcomed from all. I too climb on the VT and have often wondered the same thing. I came to the conclusion that the VT is a very reactive knot, thats why alot us perfer it. For short descents I normally don't worry much, but in long descents I can incorporate my Petzl Pirana(figure eight) without having to take off my VT. This allows me to have a back up to the fiqure eight, which is also suggested when descending. This will take the friction out of the prusik and put it in the eight, but if you were to lose your hand on the eight you will still have the prusik there to catch.
Hope this isn't too confusing!!!!!
Hope this isn't too confusing!!!!!
yeah, use the friction hitch for backup as eddy said. a munter is nice cuz all you need is a carabiner, but it does tend to milk the line into a twist and if you're not careful it's possible the rope can unscrew a screw gate.
eddiesimril@aol
ArboristSite Lurker
The Munter is great hitch, and can be used for many different apps. But it too should be backed up with something even if it is just someone on the ground keeping a hand on the descent line just in case. We all need to remember that we have to use triple auto locking carabiners for life support, I don't believe twist locks are acceptable. Could someone clearify that for me?
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