Dutchmans

[TheTreeSpyder]

i look at dutchman faces as abnormal interuption of a face, whether that be as a step on one side, a slanted swing with triangle hinge or a kerf cut. i think that this abnormal facing, violent interruption of power flowing in face raises the dangers, as it also puts more power at hand to overcome diffrent situations. Some forms are said to be illegal in some places/settings/proffessions. Dent's bible says that they can be tamed and are more powerful than a triangle hinge for pulling a leaner straight. i kinda would include OxMan's tilted triangle in this, though not sure that would fit the strict definition, i kinda see it there.

Personally i just use the kerf, for jumping tops, straight drops/snapcuts, limb locks etc. and leave the other 2 be, and what of thee?

 

[StIhL MaGnUm]

I use a kerf dutchman once in a while if I need to jump a stump or something,but I try not too if at all possible,as for the others I do find myself using swing dutchmans alot especially if I'm just thinning or doing a selective type cut do too alot of landowners want to save their saplings and first growths so I have to swing the tree in the other direction to keep the crown from coming down and tearing off a few limbs off the others.It really all depends on what the faller is trying to accomplish their are certain trees that you need to use dutchmans on you just have to know what your doing I would'nt send Joe homeowner out in the woods to fell a heavy head and side leaner,it's all expierence.

Later Rob.

 

[StIhL MaGnUm]

Wow not very many replies I'm surprised..


Later Rob

 

[John Ellison]

IMHO
A dutchman is a valuable method in timber falling, but you can get in big trouble real quick if you make a mistake in the large West Coast size trees. The secret seems to be in keeping the mo mentum going during the direction change. Its easier to get away with a mistake in shorter and smaller timber.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Me too............

A hinge is the machine we rely on and use every day, it determines so much; a lot of a particular circumstance we can't adjust; but a faace and it's resultant hinge is where we can adjust things and have some say; sometimes very potently at the vortex of the machine.

How high you put it->determines the length of the fall; The hinge flap ->determines the axis of direction folding the spar; The position of the flap in respect to the Center of Balance vertically ->determines the leverage pulling on the hinge; The position of the flap in respect to the Center of Balance horizontally (across) -> determines the lean into with and against the flap's axis; The distribution of fibre pattern in the hinge ->determines how well the hinge can fight against pulls (off side leans etc.) on the cross axis; amount of fibre and distribution-> strength etc.

Then all that the facing entails dictating the duration of uninterupted travel etc. with some control over speed and direction. So i figured that would make plenty of grist for the milling!

i think that dutchmans by nature take slamming force and focus it by interupting the flow at the face of force, and can be tricky. i make a distinction between a dutchman and jsut a triangle hinge pattern for a side leaner. i tend to only use the kerf types sparingly; have plaved with others some. i think others invoke these things more; though unintentionally. So i think understanding and defining them is probably most important in the sense of recognizing how they work and their forms; to make sure you or anyone else around makes a hinge machine that is mistakenly giving the wrong mechanical instructions. Telling the hinge to invoke the forces of a dutchman accidentally.

In smaller stuff in a tree i get a little loose and play with the face shapes with less weight and potential force; on the ground dropping a spar/tree i see the mass and leverage to be manipulated kinda outside my safetyzone!

 

[Gypo Logger]

As I see it, 99% of Dutchmens are unintentional, and cause damage to the stem you are falling, as in butt shatter and fibre pull, not to mention the danger to the saw operator. If someone is accomplished enough to place an intentional Dutchmen that works, they should be accomplish enough to use several of the better and safer means of getting a tree to the ground correctly.
The way I see it, Dutchmens are dangerous, but then again I dont create them unknowingly anymore, and I rarely loose value of a tree by incorrect felling cuts.
This is just my opinion, but I am no expert on Dutchmens with regard to making my job easier or safer.
John

 

[Rotax Robert]

Thanks again Robert Service, As we know that there are strange things done under the midnight sun.

 

[StIhL MaGnUm]

Service whos that I'm lost

 

[glens]

This is not off-topic. 
<a href="http://www.arboristsite.com/member.php?s=&action=getinfo&userid=2436">HuskyRacer<br><img src="/attachment.php?s=&postid=68470"></a>
is a dutchman.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

I think Gypo is right about dutchman's 99% of the time being unintentional. So especially after refering to the potential force manipulation in them; i think that cutters should be aware of their construction and workings, so as to not invoke them and their powers unintentionally.

That goes for the cutting as well as determining pockets of unsoundness/rot etc. and the possible effects from diffrent parts and positions of the wood being violated, whether by saw or not, the mechanics would be the same!

Same thing with a study of triangular hinging patterns, understanding them and their positioning can help predict what an area of rot will do to a certain hinge machine, like as if you had precut at that rot after facing the spar. If a cut previous to final backcutting can be so determinate on strength and stearing of hinge, than so can the same fibres violated by rot.

So especially someone that never wants things complicated by either dutchman's facings or triangle hinges, would need to be familiar with each to make sure they didn't make one, or that nature didn't provide the same effect previous to their visit. This should be evaluated before final backcutting i think. The face and hinge should be inspected and path of backcut for resultant hinge pulls considered; people, property and pets could prolly be at stake.

 

[Gypo Logger]

It would be interesting to find out where the term Dutchman came from? Why not Canadian, or Frenchman? Were the Dutch better at falling timber than us North Americans, or what?
Zypoman.

 

[dbabcock]

From forestapps.com:

________________________________________________

"Two techniques/terms used by tree care and logging professionals in the western and eastern United States. In the West, it’s called "Dutchman" or "Dutchcut". In the East its usually termed "stumpjumping". I’ve been told many times by professionals that experienced fallers don’t need all this hinge and wedge stuff, "I can put the tree right where I want it to go without all that". It’s true, many times they can. Other times, something or someone is in the way if the tree doesn’t go right.

The Dutchman or stumpjumping, both require either a modified notch or removal of hinge on one side, to allow the weight of the tree to start a momentum and rotate the weight of the tree in a desired forward direction. Often this can be performed successfully on trees with substantial side or back lean. These techniques however, require very accurate information and near perfect wind and tree fiber conditions to be successful. It is also very important that the tree doesn’t contact another limb or tree during this rotating action, or the tree will bust or go astray. Broken trunks, tops or limbs are often thrown toward the sawyer. Either way, more variables are more chances for failure. That’s why OSHA dictates that the Dutchman, or these similar swing or launching techniques, are illegal and should not be used by professionals and novices alike in the workplace. That’s Federal Law! In all cases, it places the sawyer close to the tree, not in an escape route, during the tree’s initial movement. Many injuries and deaths are attributed to these techniques.

So, whether a hinge is weak or is taken partially off by a sawyer, control is minimized in some fashion."
___________________________________________

I didn't know that Dutchmans were considered illegal. Being that I am a novice "logger", I suppose that maybe 90% of my falling cuts would be considered some form of Dutchman. Haven't found anything yet on the history behind the name.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

i think that anytime you make a conventional face cut, and the bottom/horizontal cut comes in deeper than the top/slanted cut you are invoking some kind of dutchman, by inducing a kerfed hinge that closes early and starts pulling hinge material harder, sometimes pulling free early. If that kerfed hinge is only on one side that may be causing all the pulling power to come from the other side of the hinge, that isn't dutched, as the dutched side of the face is closed , and prying the hinge fibres apart on it's side. Playing into the other side pulling around.

i think that many face cuts that the 2 cuts cross yield a dutchman type equation unknowingly, daily. Not sure if you were saying that a diffrent hinge pattern is disallowed. Never heard that before, i find a fair degree of correction to face with diffrent hinge patterns of support and pulls.

i make a distinction between a hinge pattern and change in face (dutchman). i use a triangle pattern of hinge material a lot, especially in rigging limbs to the side (wide part of triangle up for most support against pull of gravity down, like that was lean against proposed path) . Adjusting the hinge pattern, isn't as effective nor violent as a dutchman, and can be done slower, safer; more predictably given good wood. Adding wedge, pull line can yield a lot of control to target in felling.

i think a dutchman is the more powerful device of the 2 for laying away from lean, but it uses more violent, slamming forces to affect it's mechanics. In fact, i think feeding it more force(faster fall), causing harder, faster slamming of a stepped face, gives it more violent power to use to task, but more danger inherently. Looking at dutchmans as an interuption of face that might cause a diffrent hinge pattern by ripping to the other side, as a compounding of both. Also, you can set up both dutchman and strip together, to target before backcutting creating it.

In topping, i feel safe with a straight kerf dutchman, but i set myself up for a fast cut. i cut in from sides after kerf facing, to yield less material for saw to go thru, before final/backcutting to hop it over other trees or fences etc. with this slamming dutchman, that provides hop. But the leveraged forces are a lot smaller in a top. Same as i can find use for some dutch configurations in rigging limbs while climbing; i think that the smaller forces and speed control make the diffrence. It is all the same, felling, bucking, topping, rigging; with lessons about the whole subject of hinging/ facing to be found in each, to totally view the whole; for that more comprehensive understanding of the mechanics.

i guard against felling with any kind of dutchman by learning about them, and how they can come to be whether intentionally or not. i'll use and recomend the 'triangular' hinge pattern in sound wood though for felling. Sometimes with a lot of trunk rot i can more safely/accurately predict the pulls from the sound wood and what is feasible in requesting from it, from understanding how hinge fibre placement affects guiding pulls on the travel of the spar. Though, i will also examine a normal face for decay patterns that might make a type of dutchman or hinge patter (mostly hinge pattern) unintentionally, even with proper cuts, seemingly good wood. Another unintentional pulling on 'triangle' hinge pattern (wide hinge to narrow/none on the other side), is when a saw isn't long enough to reach across, and you remove material on one side of the hinge to fake it, without removing some hinge material on the cutter's side of the hinge, that could give the hinge the mechanical instruction to pull towards the cutter, unintentionally.

In either case of dutches or hinges, learning about them will probably make you use them less, as you recognize what they are, and ways you probably have seen them made before; and how control can be altered!

 

[Gypo Logger]

According to the Dictionary of Logging Terms, by Gordon Carefoot, ( Old Moccasin Tracker), published 1989, by Alana Printing Co., a Dutchman is described as follows:" It refers to falling. It refers to the part of the undercut that is not removed. It is formed when the two cuts made from the undercut do not meet and one saw cut goes deeper or past the other cut. It is a very dangerous situation".
John

 

[johncinco]

enlightened!

I gotta say, I actually learned something today off here. I had not thought about this too much before, but now that I have it does make sense and will stand out in my mind from now on. Like was mentioned, I do not do it intentionally, but it happens sometimes inadvertently and I would just continue to press on. I have not tried to turn or twist a tree using this, but have done so by cutting out the sides of a wedge or slotted up one side to swing it. Thanks for the edumucation. JB

 

[Gypo Logger]

Other neat Logging Terms

Other neat logging terms:
Pork B!tch: A large piece of pork fat stuck on the end of a stick to provide light.
Gypo: Small logging operation.
Aldergrabber: The last one into the crummy in the morning and the first one in at night.
Crummy: Crew bus used to transport loggers to and from the forest.
Gypo

 

[dbabcock]

Dub: John Lambert

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Mr. Gypo i watch your scrawlings, your observations extend to mine in the tree, echoing sometimes hauntingly.

With the same gear we shear and set the same princi-pals to the same host. The comparisons that hold true in both can be the most defining in there consistancy, even though you walk your forces out to the far end, i can exercise them in more situations, perhaps more times in a day, for i can top diffrent leads of the same tree like small removals 40x+; i can turn the same set of rules sideways and try to keep track of all of the elements and test and further define them like that,as you further define them in the shear number spectrum.

But, i can not take credit for all of that, for in Dent's Book i found the quiet notion that he evacuated and dealt with tension and compression in hinging fibre in the exact diagramed way by the flow of the forces and recognzing them as in felling. For they are exactly the same but, just kinda diffrent!

i am just getting around to writing this, but it has been ringing in me to do so since you posted. In the diagram, i show another Duthcy that Dent defines, in this, that has been my dogeared bible that i always had to come back to; cuz i didn't get it the first few times, for sure!

As far as Dutchy's just being in felling, i find the same principles elsewhere too, equally set, so in that sense call them collectively the same. If to save lives the definition is just to restrict danger, okay to that higher order, but in terms of learning and definition, just as like the rose of any other name.

i myself, may venture to this SwingDutchy for felling, but not immensly, slamming it to capitalize on the push/lift of the stepped Kerf Face on the LeanSide of the hinge, more as a better triangle hinge pattern as holding wood on the controling, offside of the lean with soft help from the step lift. Certainly not the Swing Duthcman of lore that sweeps the spar across a slanted face suddenly.

In Dutchys for felling, i still think that save for a few with the feel; should be restricted otherwise due to the forces they invoke, and the immense scale and leverage of force they set it to being so far out of range, off the charts. i think that the main education is to recognize, how imperfections in cuts, faces, hinges, decay can invoke a Dutchman unrecognized looming. That includes how decay can affect the way a hinge pulls, or make one decayed face give out as the other side slams; and if that will help or hinder you possibly to task.

So, if the definition of Dutchmans is restricted to felling, what do we then call that which encompassess these same principles played out exactly the same way and the duthcmans collectively?

From Dent's book i have defined for myself the Dutchman mechanics as an interuption causing premature compressing in the face at some point(s) as the commonality of all of these things. Is that that far off?

If pic is small, you might try 'feeling' arond for enlarge button in lower R.Hand corner

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

In case of further interest..........

Gypo doesn't have an email/pm button to say that i wasn't confronting him for lending another's writings but rather stating my feeling that it is, in the words of my boozed up buddy RickyHart to the babes, or whomever else he can extend his dance of words to in many forms ".....It's all exactly the same but diffrent ya gotta understand....". And having fun with the charachiture of logger vs. climber, yet in similar situations; and perhaps having fun with the color-fullness, evenness that he presents at the same time.

More right to this topic from elsewhere......

As always, i think these examinations are useful even if you plan never, or will never use them, perhaps even more. Perhaps because they are too complicated, unnecessary, you may say KISS etc. Even more reason to study, so that you know that you are not invoking these forces with saw at time of visit, or naaturee has done so preeviously in deformity/decay to effect the same pattern of mechanical instructions to the machine of the hinge. Rotted out hinge material in the center of the hinge is mechanicaly akin to you removing the same material with your saw. A decayed face on one side of a hinge can invoke a step dutchman as that face gives and the other slams; if that happens; will it help or hurt your aim to target?


i say OffSide in hinging (from Dent terms)as pulls across (not with) the hinge (to either side of face), OffSideLean would be a side leaner in attitude to desired path of hinge, it would therfore take an equivalent pull with fibre (high rope or hinge low) to balance to the opposing OffSide anything that overwhelmed the simple folding of hinge to it's CenterFocal (gunned from corners). Opting to express that necessary balancing pull low using hinge fibre is one way. High leveraged pull to balance pull of lean can be used instead or in tandem with the hinge pattern. The side hinge pull of triangle hinge is mostly passive in the upper dramatics i try to draw from it (active in lower range from shear numbers of threads). By passive i mean it only pulls back what is put upon it till it fails; it doesnt let you know it's strength till then, the gentleman giant. Like, tie a line to a tree pull 5#, tree pull back 5#; 500? that big s.o.b. can match that too. The line pull is an active pull, it pulls 300, it has 300 to put in to the deal; but it can pull from higher leverage point! Being passive, and self setting, within its power range, the OffSide triangle hinge pattern; is less likely to over or under pull a spar center, over a wider range, and is saw adjusted. Pull line can be metered some adjustment by another partyt clear of the works, but not as long and pervasive as hinge pattern.


Besides pulling we can lift the extra weight into the face that overwhelms the simple folding of the hinge. We can put a wedge from the backside or a step from the front. Pulling (line, hinge) is done to the opposite side across the hinge of the OffSideLean, to pull the balance of weight CenterFocal, looking for balance to the face. Lifting is done from the LeanSide, to the same even balance into the face. Using a wedge from back is active,and short lived, most drama from loading hinge like spring with it i think. Step lift (dutchman face interuption) is passive, yet can be dangerous and un prescribed) Most examinations of Dutchys should teach how not to make and why, for most are accidentally made daily. It is passive and acted upon to show it's stuff by the faces slamming, more force in, more force out, less predictability without good understanding of this, the most powerful of the group most of the time........ with the less setup/employment time! Both of these steps/lifts end up invoking the natural sleeping giant on the other side of the hinge,the aforementioned hing patterning to pull to the desired side, as the step pushes. The 'step' strategies do this forcing the hinge to rip on their side first, thereby gaining pull from the hinge pattern as they push. Indeed the SwingDutchy, does this very purposefully, cuz ya start it like that with the precuts.


i think that a decayed face that invoked a step dutchy might be ok on the OffSide of the lean, so the step formed on the heavy side woud push to the offside (decay in face side). If the face decay, was only on the Lean side, tree would pull that way, and as decayed face under it gave, the step formed by the other face would add to the pull of the lean, and further guide it from target.

Whereby, Iff the rot is in the face on one side, you wouldn't waant it to be under the Leaning side, for it is a push force. Hinge is exact opposite, it is a pull force, in choosing loss of strength/flexability in the hinge, you would rather the lean side be weak, so the good fibre could pull across the face to home (CenterFocal of hinge).

So that is why i think it is all the same, and should be looked at well; especially if you never want to use it.

And even to the extension of; that in never doing it, understanding it when loss of strength/flexability by any factor, and its palcement in the total arraingement whether caused by chainsaw or not (natural rot etc. performing same selection of mechanics without your saw's consent); places you with handling a dutchman totally in experienced.

For, climbing and rigging where the mass and leverage are not so immense, some 'Dutching' is safer on that scale. ie. swing dutchman to the side. Things learned here, would directly link back to the faster slamming and power of felling, adjusted to scale, cuz Ricky says It's all the same.......

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Another DutchMan Thread with Pix From climber's forum.