Ethical ?

[tree pro]

I live in Denver, and the one of the largest companies here has a new recruiting practice. They have obtained a list of ISA certified Arborists in the area and send job opening announcements to them in the mail. I recieved two so far, and two of my employees have received them also.

I am a small company and this kind of solicitation is kinda breaking the rules in my opinion. If my guys choose to look for employment elsewhere, so be it, but for them to approach my employees is uncool.

I think this spring I will set up a small booth outside their main office and try to steal their employees. Or, better yet, I will put flyers on their employees cars in the parking lot. And, in addition to that, maybe I'll start having my sales team start following around their sales men and trying to underbid each job they bid on!

I also think it sucks that the ISA sells the list in the first place.

 

[Chucky]

Unfortunately, this sort of unprincipled headhunting is commonplace in industries with high rates of employee turnover. In long-haul trucking, where I now work, the industry norm for annual turnover is about 100 percent, and there are no boundaries to the sorts of unscrupulous tactics recruiters will employ to attract drivers.

Your remedy to the problem sounds tongue-in-cheek, but it's not off the mark. A few weeks ago, one of our drivers asked us in dispatch what two people were doing handing out pamphlets near the entrance to our terminal. Turns out they were two J.B. Hunt recruiters, trying to seduce our drivers right in our front yard! Our terminal manager, a former college football linebacker, went out and ran the rascals off.

 

[MasterBlaster]

Hahaha. I'd like to have seen that!

 

[newb]

Tree Pro, Theproblem with your thinking is you have to stoop to their level, and you really dont sound like that kind of guy. Big companys of all types use small companys for their training programs. They must think highly of your work to want your employees. You really cant blame an employee to want to work for a higher wage and benifits. I think the better answer to your problem would be to make your employees sign a no-compete clause, and make it maybe a 100 mile radius, with a rider if a big company wants them to pay you out.

 

[tophopper]

I also think it sucks that the ISA sells the list in the first place.

The cert list is free to anyone, it is not sold.

Mailing letters to individually certified arborists(at their home address) is not unethical IMO. To mail them to competing companies ...thats another story.

I also feel the cert list is a valuable resource not only for consumers but also for employers seeking qualified help. How are they to know what kind of job status CAs on the list are currently in, there may just be an unemployed CA in the area who's been looking for work

Have your employees been approached thru means of your business or merely contacted because they are certified?

 

[treeman82]

I think that on a business level, its not unethical. However on an interpersonal level, I do think it is unethical. If I was you, I would bring it up at the next ISA meeting, or send an e-mail to your chapter voicing your concerns. The other stuff isn't worth the trouble it will cause.

 

[NeTree]

The cert list is free to anyone, it is not sold.

Mailing letters to individually certified arborists(at their home address) is not unethical IMO. To mail them to competing companies ...thats another story.

I also feel the cert list is a valuable resource not only for consumers but also for employers seeking qualified help. How are they to know what kind of job status CAs on the list are currently in, there may just be an unemployed CA in the area who's been looking for work

I'd have to agree.

Chucky, why would anyone wanna drive for JB Hunt anyways?

 

[Newfie]

How is healthy competition for skilled personel, unethical? Every industry trying to get the best individuals, headhunts. Geez, next you won't want any of your competitiors bidding on jobs you've bid.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Maybe they will go off and work with Tom D. for a wile, get sick of the big company grind then come back to you with a little more skill and knowledge.

All you have to do is get the same list and send a few post cards to thier employees.

Wehn I had a cert for spraying, I would get one off those cards several times a year from a number of different companies.

 

[TREETX]

Sour Apples

They did nothing wrong. Aren't you happy that you have employee retention for reasons other than having ignorant employees? If you were the ISA cert employee, wouldn't you want to be informed of employment possibilities

Face it, in today's generation, people date their jobs, they don't marry them. There is reciprocity in this relationship.

 

[Chucky]

Chucky, why would anyone wanna drive for JB Hunt anyways?

Eric, they're actually not that bad now as far as raw pay per mile, now with their new pay package (around $.40/mile). But they tend to keep their drivers out too long. Then, after their drivers are out on the road for several weeks, when they finally do go home for a week, dispatch wants to slipsheet their trucks, in other words, take their truck away from them and give them a different one (which might be junk) when they go back out. I've heard they've gotten better as far as getting their drivers home more often, but there's no comparison with our company. We're actually bigger now (the biggest in the country) than J.B. Hunt, and we have so much freight that we can get our drivers home on a dime. With a shortage of drivers in the industry, thus the emphasis now on driver retention, we do about anything to accommodate our drivers if they need some hometime.

We have about 500 drivers out of our Syracuse terminal, and not a single driver didn't get home for Christmas this year who wanted to (I deadheaded drivers home if there was no freight). Of course, for those drivers who wanted to run over the holidays, we offered them a $250 bonus for those who run 2500 miles in eight days. That's been my job today and yesterday, making sure these drivers made their bonus in lieu of spending their holiday time at home. Wasn't easy, but I deadheaded drivers to another state paid miles for a load if there was no freight in the state they were in. It's costly, but losing a driver that we've spent so much time and money training, is much costlier than losing him (or her).

TreeTx said:

Face it, in today's generation, people date their jobs, they don't marry them. There is reciprocity in this relationship.

The hard reality if you're a manager or owner. In my day, tree work or driving big truck, we just did what we were told. Simple as that. Now, everything's negotiable. Nowadays, when a driver says "I don't do the Bronx," we have to find somebody else to run the load. I miss the "old days."

 

[tinman44]

In today's workplace there has to be employee retention. Like one said ppl don't marry their job anymore its more like dating. Company I work for has recruiting like the armed forces now. You have to with so many jobs offering better benefits, you have to give your ppl a reason to stay. Human resource managers are more like salesmen now. I guess what I'm getting at is talk to your guys and find out if their happy, if there is a common issue you may be able to adjust or if they are thinking about the grass on the other side of the fence. If you treat your ppl right most likely they will respect you for it and stay with you, another thing about the new workforce, we like to be trained and get experience. "Back in the day" my job was an apprenticeship, now the old farts are all so touchy and say all our younger operators don't know their jobs. I disagree they don't have as much experience but for the most part they know their jobs.

 

[tree pro]

I appreciate the different viewpoints, and after reading the various responses, I guess maybe I was taking it a little too personally.

My point is simply this, while it is true that business is business, I think that there should be limits to seeking employees. Would it make you angry if any tree company looking for employees were to start stopping at your job sites to solicit your workers?

None of my workers took the bait, why? Because I offer them more $ per hour, decent benfits, bonuses, and maybe the biggest reason- no drug testing. Sorry, but its the ugly truth!

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

My point is simply this, while it is true that business is business, I think that there should be limits to seeking employees. Would it make you angry if any tree company looking for employees were to start stopping at your job sites to solicit your workers?

Yes that would be crossing the line, and in some states illeagle, because they are interfearing with your ability to do buisness. For that i would call the cops on tresspass at least.

 

[Can-Do-It]

I think that on a business level, its not unethical. However on an interpersonal level, I do think it is unethical. If I was you, I would bring it up at the next ISA meeting, or send an e-mail to your chapter voicing your concerns. The other stuff isn't worth the trouble it will cause.

This may sound dumb but how do I find out if we have a locate ISA chapter.

 

[Ekka]

Hmm, being reletively new to this forum I have just read this thread and must say that being the victim (having your staff poached sux) but doing it to some-one else and getting some good guys? Tough one, I personally wouldn't do it. I would advertise in papers etc and some-one looking for a job would apply.

First of all, don't get sucked in by the staff member, I've learnt that many play the grass is greener game, some think they're that good that they're getting headhunted every day but in reality they're ringing every Tom around town and broadcasting your business, pay, equipment, marketing etc and looking for the fast buck. Your better off without them.

In a genuine poach case confront the owner of the business doing it, find out if he's a member of an association and dob him in for unethical behaviour, call it what you like but it is pilfering of resources ... human resources. You spend a lot of time advertising, recruiting and training people then a shmuck comes along and just pinches them ... no conscience ... keep the door open for your staff, let them come to you and lay the cards on the table if they are being poached so you can try to combat it ... and leave the door open, they may come back!

The only defence that I have come up with over the years is try to have spares. At one stage everybody on the crew could climb, lug, chip,stump grind etc. Get a young one with potential and start training, they'll be more loyal, use contract climbers once or twice a week as back up, make industry mates who'll help out in a pickle ... I bet no-one will help out the pilfering rogue company who stole your staff.

And what I found in the long term was that those rogue companies aren't that good and some even fold.

I hope this helps a few of you out.

 

[OutOnaLimb]

I do a lot of work in the winter months up in Denver even though I live in Colo Springs. I know exaclty who you are talkin about, they even have an employment Ad in this months TCIA mag. Hey, if you need some extra help I am a sub contract climber here in the mile high state, gimme a call. Im not ISA certified yet, but I will be in April. Justin Scott can verify my climbing skills if need be.

Kenn

 

[arboromega]

im not so sure this was an unethical practice. the company was not approaching all tree workers, just isa cert. i have been approached in this manner. the isa mails a free arborist directory to every member with a list of states/cities and the names of all isa cert in that place.
if you own a tree company and want good people, a direct letter campaign to certified arborists would certainly be a way to approach the issue.

 

[bushman]

Tell your boss omega.

 

[Ekka]

Are you telling me that they publish or provide full details such as mailing address (which in most cases is your home address)?

And that easily sourced information can be use by marketeers?

What about privacy, have you the option to be "silent & unseen"?

I'm pretty skeptical about this, yeah sure they can verify your certification but disclose your details seems a bit invading and obviously opens members up for solicitation. Imagine if the education system did this, or the Tax office, or the hospital etc, what about the rego dept "err, where does vehicle rego number ARB 007 live?