Ethics or loyalty?

[beastmaster]

I love my new job. I do cool removals almost every working day. We do a lot of fire clearance and roof clearances also on upscale mountain homes. I may be the only spikeless climber up there, and like to think I bring to the table a lot of skill, so even on raising an Oak or trimming Cedar branches off a roof I cut back to laterals and try to keep from mutilating or ruining the tree. Lot of loggers doing work up there and their not gentle to non removals.
Today the Company had me top(remove all green) two maples, and cut back a Black Oak way savoir. It went against everything I believe in. I almost walked off the job. I was suppose to take 20ft off another oak but I conviced the HO that thinning and crown trimming would better suit him. Still took off to much.
This is the first trim I've done in two months and a half that Iv'e worked up there. The maples had been topped in the past. The Black Oak is a hazard tree if you ask me, so I justified hacking it back.View attachment 201525View attachment 201526View attachment 201527
This Company has been good to me, so I did what they asked. I am going to talk to the Boss and explane how I feel about doing that kind of work and in the future, would he consult me when(if)he sells another trim job. If they had been nice trees(untopped)I think I would of refused. I did kind of save one oak and maybe educated the HO.
Should I have refused to done this job from the Beginning? It was a morale dilemma?

 

[Bigus Termitius]

I love my new job. I do cool removals almost every working day. We do a lot of fire clearance and roof clearances also on upscale mountain homes. I may be the only spikeless climber up there, and like to think I bring to the table a lot of skill, so even on raising an Oak or trimming Cedar branches off a roof I cut back to laterals and try to keep from mutilating or ruining the tree. Lot of loggers doing work up there and their not gentle to non removals.
Today the Company had me top(remove all green) two maples, and cut back a Black Oak way savoir. It went against everything I believe in. I almost walked off the job. I was suppose to take 20ft off another oak but I conviced the HO that thinning and crown trimming would better suit him. Still took off to much.
This is the first trim I've done in two months and a half that Iv'e worked up there. The maples had been topped in the past. The Black Oak is a hazard tree if you ask me, so I justified hacking it back.View attachment 201525View attachment 201526View attachment 201527
This Company has been good to me, so I did what they asked. I am going to talk to the Boss and explane how I feel about doing that kind of work and in the future, would he consult me when(if)he sells another trim job. If they had been nice trees(untopped)I think I would of refused. I did kind of save one oak and maybe educated the HO.
Should I have refused to done this job from the Beginning? It was a morale dilemma?

Try your best to work your ethics into your loyalty. "To thine own self be true" has its limitations, but also bears its merit on broad shoulders. If you find your boss to have an apathetic ear....walk. I did....and it has made all the difference.

 

[troythetreeman]

i walked off a job once because i was asked to top some trees
i asked the salesman if he told the HO how bad it was, he said no
i approached the boss and he said keep your mouth shut and do it
i said no, packed up my gear and left
it was pretty lean for me for a while after that
i have a much better job now
i will top a tree if the HO knows its bad, it is after all, their tree

 

[TheLumberJack]

When you work for someone else you gotta do what you gotta do, or else.

This is a great example of why I went from employee to employer.

 

[MARAZONAGT]

I love my new job. I do cool removals almost every working day. We do a lot of fire clearance and roof clearances also on upscale mountain homes. I may be the only spikeless climber up there, and like to think I bring to the table a lot of skill, so even on raising an Oak or trimming Cedar branches off a roof I cut back to laterals and try to keep from mutilating or ruining the tree. Lot of loggers doing work up there and their not gentle to non removals.
Today the Company had me top(remove all green) two maples, and cut back a Black Oak way savoir. It went against everything I believe in. I almost walked off the job. I was suppose to take 20ft off another oak but I conviced the HO that thinning and crown trimming would better suit him. Still took off to much.
This is the first trim I've done in two months and a half that Iv'e worked up there. The maples had been topped in the past. The Black Oak is a hazard tree if you ask me, so I justified hacking it back.View attachment 201525View attachment 201526View attachment 201527
This Company has been good to me, so I did what they asked. I am going to talk to the Boss and explane how I feel about doing that kind of work and in the future, would he consult me when(if)he sells another trim job. If they had been nice trees(untopped)I think I would of refused. I did kind of save one oak and maybe educated the HO.
Should I have refused to done this job from the Beginning? It was a morale dilemma?

This is an interesting topic beastmaster, often in the past I have found similiar dillemas, but in the end found that if I was to look at earth from outer space and consider the environmental reaction it seems so insignifigant. There are literally billions and billions of Trees unscathed, if you love your job just grin and bear it, no worries toward the impact. Microscopically sure you have a good point, why do loggers end up ordering you how to care for a tree? when you know what is best. But walking off the job only shows weakness>the inability to see past the forest. The food you buy with the $ earned wil taszte the same and the boss would just hire someone else to top these hardwoods anyways. Where spurring is concerned> spurs are a tree climbers prize tool, for years I followed protocol and refused to gauge trees as my mentor taught me to climb without via throwball or ladder up and install lifeline somehow. But then some rookies were making me look very bad after so many years climbing. Now, I will not hesitate to strap on me spurs and get the job done, makes perfect sense to me. ####e, if the tree dies from a few spur holes, I believe the tree dint have much resistance to begin with. However, your ethical devotion to proper tree care is noted and I will be sending out some much deserved rep for your attention to this matter, as well your extended effort here to bring this up. For the new generation of climbers out there you must remember that safety is paramount and spurs are a climbers best friend (at times).:msp_thumbup:

 

[sgreanbeans]

There are billions of people, if ya stab one in the neck, well then that person was probably weak and would have died anyways.

I would go with ethics, I would ask your boss to refrain from that, if he cannot, let him know that you don't want to do that type of work. Maybe he can keep you away from it. I worked for Dean Sutton out there, had me do a couple things I didn't like, I told him I wouldn't do it again, he didn't like it, but he put me on the good work, never putting me in that position again. The Mexican guys he had, didn't like it either, as I was getting better work, then my gear was stolen out of a double locked truck, hmmmmmm!

 

[capetrees]

When you work for someone else you gotta do what you gotta do, or else.

This is a great example of why I went from employee to employer.

Exactly. The boss is the boss, the backlash doesn't come back to you, it gos to him/her. If you don't like what they tell you to do, walk. But in this economy, that might not be a good idea for now.

 

[MARAZONAGT]

in this economy, that might not be a good idea for now.

very accurate advice.

 

[beastmaster]

Also you have to factor in the fact, if I walked or refused to do the job, I would be writting off and not work for no one up there. I did walk off a job once, and I feel I was in the right, but that incident still follows me(pissed off some people real good) No I am glad I dealtwith it, and I'll let my feelings be known today.
I let my ISA cert. expire with out payment, but I'll take the test again soon, then I can put it off on the cert., saying i'll lose my certification doing that kind of work.
We don't do much trimming up there anyway, but its surprising, how 30 miles and 6000ft makes such a difference. Their in the stone age as far as a lot of tree care goes.

 

[MARAZONAGT]

In the Tree You are the Master Arborist

ya but beast whats the biggie? honestly from far off it matters none dude. Think of the justice your doing, who else would have kept what you kept? back to laterals and such? leave it in the woods man! wood dont care for a few holes, plus think of the insects for a second, climbiong for dear life, praying for an opening. Then consider that if i were there as painful as it seems, jeopardizing ISA approval, I would spur it, hell I would clear cut a mountainside if it meant my kids will not have to start a saw, inhale all that exhaust and sawdust. University man, college fees, rent, marriage and downpayment co-signing, automobile expenses, dentalwork, hockey equipment. The list continues to grow, all this we can afford and leave the Tree standing? if you ask me brother you shouldn't bear the grief on your shoulders, leave it with the living wood man! I have heard enough crying from the back of my mind about little holes in the wood, then go back years leter and see the very Tree I spurred healthier then the one the HO planted beside it.

 

[treeman75]

If a home owner ask me to top a tree I try to educate them. I refuse to do it, I dont want my name on a topped tree!

 

[TheLumberJack]

If a home owner ask me to top a tree I try to educate them. I refuse to do it, I dont want my name on a topped tree!

Agreed! Little different story.

 

[MARAZONAGT]

GOD tops trees all the time!

Remember the wind and what natures wrath has upon our woody friends, without haste or regret we can prune trees suitable to human needs is fine. When we decide to prune like nature would have, we are simply forcing a "new crown development phase" which will require maintenance as the years add up. This does incorporate concerns for both (Arborist and Tree), these concerns should be brought up and considered, depending on who the contractor is etc., depends on your particular role. Actually when you think about it, we as Arborists have the unique opportunity to improve on Natures wrath with its messy (quick got other trees to cut attitude) prune jobs!. We have excess nubs and splinters to contend with, cavity work from previous injuries which have rot issues. Often complicated surgery seems like nature was thinking, and left the rest to us. My point is why would you be ashamed to pollard when nature does it all the time? i would carve my name into it! with pleasure, its just gonna compartmentalize anyways.

 

[Bigus Termitius]

If a home owner ask me to top a tree I try to educate them. I refuse to do it, I dont want my name on a topped tree!

In the long run, principles always provide an honest living.

 

[Bigus Termitius]

Also you have to factor in the fact, if I walked or refused to do the job, I would be writting off and not work for no one up there.

Maybe that would be the best thing for you.

I did walk off a job once, and I feel I was in the right, but that incident still follows me(pissed off some people real good) No I am glad I dealtwith it, and I'll let my feelings be known today.
I let my ISA cert. expire with out payment, but I'll take the test again soon, then I can put it off on the cert., saying i'll lose my certification doing that kind of work.
We don't do much trimming up there anyway, but its surprising, how 30 miles and 6000ft makes such a difference. Their in the stone age as far as a lot of tree care goes.

Get your certs back and go forth and put the ignorant out of business.

When I first got into this full time a few years ago, I denied my landlords job offer to run his business operations. He said: "Why, to cut down trees?"

I said, "No, to care for them." When he found out I was looking for some weekend work to compliment my ROW job, he called the local tree guy and put me on the phone. When the "tree guy" found out that I worked with the guy that got the local utility forestry job (who would btw become a mentor of mine) instead of him, he got nasty and said, "I have absolutely no use for you." I thanked him for his time and hung up, but it resonated.

Here I am now, doing good business in a community that is waking up to the notion that this "tree man" has been nothing more than a destructive and ignorant parasite on city and private trees alike for years. He has since lost his hourly contract with the city and spends his time tracking me down and stalking my job sites every day. Nothing that I intended, save to do good business for myself, but it's what happens when principles are tended to, and ignorance disbanded with. I get calls to top a tree and it's an opportunity to teach, which is why I have no time to check the progress, or lack thereof, of my competition.

 

[ForTheArborist]

It's one thing to do or don't-do the job as the owner, and it's another thing if you are the employee.

I haven't pursued my ISA cert. yet, but I'll be proud to as of next winter. I understand that their regulations state that you cannot top trees. Is that true???

I'll tell you what tho, Beasts. There is a certain skill that you don't got, or you would just change some minds around up there. I know if I was was certified and in the position you are in, I would get absolutely ambassador/lobbyist/professional with him, and no matter what.......... no harm done.

Being heavily pursuassive without harming your situation can be done like anything you get done on your work days. It takes practice, and think of practice like this. The more practice you can do in pursuading people like that employer that topping trees is just unprofessional and illogical thus ironic because the employer should be a rational professional, right??? ....the more practice the more trees you can save in the future.

You might have let some trees get by in the beginning, but in the future you'll be saving more if you were to work on your professional ambassadorship.

Otherwise, what can you do? Those trees were getting topped no matter what unless the right arborist was there. Now you see how it plays out, and it must go that way all the time. Prepare yourself the right way ahead of time, and the opportunity in your future will present itself. You can bet on it, and you'll be ready if you work on it.

Here's a great book if you're headed in the pursuasion direction:
How to Influence People
by Dale Carnegie

I read this every once and a while to break my poor habits, and consequentally I always make new break throughs with people around the time I'm reading the book.

 

[ducaticorse]

Call me crazy, but no one is forcing anyone to remain employeed with them. If you don't like what your job scope is, have a conversation with your employer, if you still get no satisfaction, then walk. As an employer, I'll be damned when my employees start telling me what they will or will not do as long as it has nothing to do with their safety or breaking the law.

You are in somewhat of a moral dilema, but this is a free country, and your employment is at will BOTH ways. Don't be surprised when you get the boot for raising too much of a stink, because there are a BUNCH of capable, out of work tree personnel right now, and where this economy is going, there is only going to be more.

 

[treeseer]

Thanks for posting bm and thanks for trying to make a difference. Climbing without spikes and pruning without unnecessary damage are skills that climbers can be proud of. Your next step is showing your boss how good pruning can be sold for a higher price because it builds more value.

Your taste buds are obviously connected to your brain; you know that food bought by quality work tastes much better than food bought by mindless activity. opcorn:

 

[troythetreeman]

my "loyalty" went as far as to not go to the homeowner and explain topping and why it shouldnt be done
in hindsight thats a regret
my ethics dictated that i could not and would not top those trees while the homeowner was under the delusion it was good for them or the right thing to do
people care about their trees, if they didnt they wouldnt hire us to trim them
they expect and trust we are professionals who will do the right thing
i dont know how it is where you guys are, but around here i really dont have a problem finding work
in fact, ive never "looked" for it other then when i ran my own show
to say times were lean for me isnt exactly fair, it was true, but i didnt feel like working, so i didnt do a lot of it, i kept my bills paid and took care of projects around home that i had been putting off or too busy for
we have a skill most people dont have, i have customers shake my hand almost daily, "balls of steel", "amazing", "worth every penny"...
there are hundreds of tree companies in minnesota, even with all that competition i currently work full time and have more side work then i can keep up with
im glad i walked off the job that day, and as far as the guy i was working for at the time, ive worked for him since when he has been especially busy with storm work
its true he did replace me with a guy who will and does top trees, fine by me, he runs a good company, he gives a lot of guys who are otherwise unemployable second chances with a drug free work zone and a very understanding policy for needed time off for things like probation appointments, uas and treatment
he works closely with probation officers and drug councilors, if i hadnt known he would just climb himself till he replaced me i may not have left that whole crew hanging, idk
but im not ok with butchering a tree and then looking a customer in the eye like i did something good

 

[beastmaster]

We finished up that job today. That Maple won't be going in my portfolio either.:rolleyes2: The tops of all the top cuts were hollow and had big woodpecker holes in them. I think they were using them for nests. I suggested the HO remove them and plant something new. Me and the HO talked a lot and I know he was a lot more educated when I left. I was able to use his own trees as examples of what topping does. I know for a fact were getting a lot more work because of me. I am a talker and not shy to give advice on peoples trees. Most people are just ignorant and just don't know.
I am going to check to see if I could maybe write some thing about the trees and tree care in the local mountain paper. People are tree rich up there, if people in the flat lands had one of those beautiful trees in the yard they would cherish it. That is not to say they don't like their trees, I think they just take them for granted.
There are so many company's up there, lots of competition, but I'm seeing a niche that might prove profitable. Its working out ok. I just have to roll with the punches