TheKid
ArboristSite Operative
Am I correct in stating that a downsloping backcut is improper procedure when felling large trees (10"dbh and above)?
falling 101
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Canyonbc
Addicted to ArboristSite
Ya i would say so.
joesawer
Addicted to ArboristSite
Yep. That sloping back cut is some ignorant, amuter idea to prevent kick back or set back or something. They usually are not sure what they are trying to prevent or how it is actually supposed to prevent it.
Back when I was young and stupid (young no longer applies) I thought a sloping back cut would give a wedge more effect. Then I got edumacated.
Harry K
Husky137
Addicted to ArboristSite
A sloping backcut on any tree is pointless. It also makes it more difficult to wedge the tree in the desired direction after the tree sits down on your bar.
diltree
ArboristSite Guru
You also loose your ability to use a hinge to manipulate the direction of the fell.
it think is makes a simple procedure more difficult but it has the same result. i am interested in what others have to say about this practice. i seldom see this method being used in commercial tree maintenance,and its most often homeowners i c doing it.for now its hard for me to say its wrong because just the other day i saw a near genius engineer doing it, i should of asked him why. maybe just more brains than common sense. i think this is a great post,and i agree it is poor practice for most trees, but i wonder if it has its place in arborculture.
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Canyonbc
Addicted to ArboristSite
My experince with SOME not All engineer is yes they are smart and normally very good at there specific field...but outside of that they are not.
They think they are perfect and cant do wrong...can never seem to give one advice.
I removed 3 Cottonwoods for a civil egineer last summer...man all day was he on my case about this and that...the first half an hour of his #####ing...i kind of lied told him my insurance doesnt allow homeowners do communicate with myself or workers for safety reasons.
He did...but man o man was he a pain.
Not saying all engineers are like this...i am making a generalization.
Sorry not trying to change thread.
Cut a 1/3 face level from the back...use a wedge...rope for extra security with a constant pull.
They think they are perfect and cant do wrong...can never seem to give one advice.
I removed 3 Cottonwoods for a civil egineer last summer...man all day was he on my case about this and that...the first half an hour of his #####ing...i kind of lied told him my insurance doesnt allow homeowners do communicate with myself or workers for safety reasons.
He did...but man o man was he a pain.
Not saying all engineers are like this...i am making a generalization.
Sorry not trying to change thread.
Cut a 1/3 face level from the back...use a wedge...rope for extra security with a constant pull.
Engineers can help to understand things though at times. I have used a sloping backcut a few times, for specific reasons. The few times were when it was going to take a lot of wedge to lift the tree over the face cut and would be difficult to get to the wedge location due to obstacles.
There are times when it may be easier to "push" the tree over with wedges than it is to "lift" it. I can get into the math side of it if necessary, but to simplify it, think of it this way: is it easier to make a standing log fall over by lifting from the bottom or pushing from the side?
However, the ONLY time this works is if the sloped back cut is beyond a 45 degree angle. It is VERY difficult to get the angled back cut to align correctly with the material removed from the face, hence the warnings about breaking the hinge. I have used this on a few VERY heavy trees when canopy weight and lean were against me. It helps the wedges to drive in, rather than just bounce under the excessive loading. It makes for an ugly stump to clean up. It isn't easy. And it has to be precise. Anything short of perfect looks like an amature job.
I KNOW I'll get some hefty rebuttal on this. Bring it on... But I know when and where it has helped. Not many times.. but enough to not discount the process.
There are times when it may be easier to "push" the tree over with wedges than it is to "lift" it. I can get into the math side of it if necessary, but to simplify it, think of it this way: is it easier to make a standing log fall over by lifting from the bottom or pushing from the side?
However, the ONLY time this works is if the sloped back cut is beyond a 45 degree angle. It is VERY difficult to get the angled back cut to align correctly with the material removed from the face, hence the warnings about breaking the hinge. I have used this on a few VERY heavy trees when canopy weight and lean were against me. It helps the wedges to drive in, rather than just bounce under the excessive loading. It makes for an ugly stump to clean up. It isn't easy. And it has to be precise. Anything short of perfect looks like an amature job.
I KNOW I'll get some hefty rebuttal on this. Bring it on... But I know when and where it has helped. Not many times.. but enough to not discount the process.
look up i wrote after where it says (wll) i hope u can understand.
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joesawer
Addicted to ArboristSite
The problem with angling your back cut over 45 degrees and then driving a wedge to push the tree over on one that is to heavy to lift is that the wood will split long before it will compress much. So a wedge can lift way more than it can push. A wedge will lift way more than most people will ever get the opportunity to use. To get the most out of it requires a steel wedge with shims and good technique. These can provide enough lift to make the wood in the stump buckle from compression. To help avoid this use more wedges to spread the pressure out over more area.
If a plastic wedge is just bouncing when you hit it try adding more wedges, finer taper wedge, steel wedge (not the wood splitting type), cutting a wider kerf to help the wedge start moving. If you are doing tree work you are probably in over your head at this point and need to put a line in it and pull it over.
O so your saying because a wedge can lift far more than it can push if you use a strong angle back cut you are now pushing with the lifting power of the wedge. does anyone understand this? i think i do.
joesawer
Addicted to ArboristSite
I am saying that if you drive a wedge into an angled back cut, a piece will split off the stump and you will loose all lift or push long before you will run out of lift from placing wedges in a proper back cut.
TheKid
ArboristSite Operative
thanks all for helping settle a bet. thanks wll for trying to stay on target. I would love to hear more from others on this practice of the sloping backcut, which I've always been taught is wrong.
Guys.. I'm not arguing, belittling or debating. If you re-read my post, I explain that there are very few times that I've used this technique. I would prefer to never use it also, but as I explained, there have been a few... VERY few.. times when it has been used for different reasons. I was in no way advocating that sloped cuts become routine. I was only trying to show that sometimes situations dictate that we do something out of the ordinary.
For the record, maybe due to significant review prior to cutting, I have never had the wedge split the stump prior to levering the tree to where I wanted it to go.
For the record, maybe due to significant review prior to cutting, I have never had the wedge split the stump prior to levering the tree to where I wanted it to go.
i may be on to something here. can some others that understand what i said above add or :help:? with a strong angle back cut you are now pushing the tree with the wedge. with a traditional horizontal back cut you are lifting the tree with the wedge. common:monkey:sense tells me that is correct
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Burvol
Bullbuck
You're from Oregon? Never attempt retarted :censored:
Mitchell
ArboristSite Operative
sloping back
Nevr seen anyone do that who falls for a paycheck. Not saying it might not have merrit; however I doubt it. On a large tree it would be a pain to line up the back cut. It would be a lot of extra cutting [away from the grain which would be slower going] when you might want the extra speed to nip a corner to pull it back into leed.
Nevr seen anyone do that who falls for a paycheck. Not saying it might not have merrit; however I doubt it. On a large tree it would be a pain to line up the back cut. It would be a lot of extra cutting [away from the grain which would be slower going] when you might want the extra speed to nip a corner to pull it back into leed.
