Falling article 4

[murphy4trees]

Since the last attempt again got derailed:

Hi NE...
OK in the last thread you mentioned some different thoughts or disagreements with the falling article in TCI.. What are your thoughts and criticisms?
Don't hold back... It's an opportunity for all to learn... And if my friends can't tell me I have bad breath..... Who can?

So far the only serious criticism I've heard is ... so who didn't know that?.... And in my thinking anyone arguing with the basic concept is really arguing with Den t and Beranek (and Spidy of course), not me...
Thanks,

 

[Newfie]

Maybe it got derailed for a reason.

 

[NeTree]

1) I disagree that an open-faced notch is desireable or appropriate in "the vast majority of falling situations".

A TRUE open-faced notch is appropriate when it's desireable to leave the spar attached to the stump. However, that attachment isn't always warranted.

An open-faced notch isn't any less prone to cutting errors than any other notch; it's all in the skill of the cutter.

2) The article sounded too much like you basically read Dent and Baranek's books, and then copied it into article form. ("Here are Dent's instructions for cutting a tapered hinge").

3) I don't see one picture with an open-faced notch in it. ie- faces at 90 degrees or greater.

4) Having cut thousands of tapered hinges, and worked with guys who have cut thousands of their own, I won't say that the Dent/Baranek way is wrong per se, but I do cut it differently with exceptional results. I'm sure Mike can attest to that.

 

[Newfie]

What he said.

 

[MasterBlaster]

I've never seen a notch drove into the ground before.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

i think that a more open face, offers logically a longer period of control and adjustment. i think there are times, when that can set against you.

One time would be to get a clean throw detached before head or some other part contacted anything, the farther out the contact(head etc.) the more leveraged resistance pushing back, the more i want early detachment etc.

Another time is when you don't want/can't afford a long ride or pull on the stump/tree you're in; for the control comes from brakforce of the connection load pivots on. So, if stump is rotten, roots tightly wrapped in pipes (pitching stump resisting force above ground will break pipes/ sometimes even wires if tight enough underground), disrupting fiber down into parent connection in trimming etc.

Throwing the butt more upward than out in a narrow face stump.

A dutch push on one side to steer, or in trimming a snap cut, or top jump is like a kerf face, that is like a full face dutchman so throws forward more evenly then stepped. i find if you want the snap cut to throw something small left, i cut across to the right, and it counter steers as it slams closed on the right and throws left! With a kerf face, there is no hinge pull/ride to use the cut across strategy; there is only the opposite face/push, so the opposite-the counter steer- becomes appreciable as the only operative; working backwards tot he same direction, as push is the opposite of pull.

Limiting range of movement to certain position for crane lift etc., and simialr parallel in bucking tension releif.

But, after that, open faced, on some horizontal sweeps in air- stretching towards 'full face' of almost 180; but in the tight line rigging with compressive direction down can go faceless to the side (where weight isn't) as line makes so light, it is like cutting a lot smaller piece, that yu can get away with such things.





In Murph's article he talked of another trimming cut; kerfing under the hinge on horizontals small med., noting that the effect was lost as you upgraded to larger stuff, then no kerf, all hinge.

i think that is point on. i think inthe lighter example, though you are reducing the holding leverage by shortening the part of the hinge in line with gravity pull, so that the leverage of that axis is shortened by the kerf. But,the kerf pushes back up to the direct pull down like a dutchman face strategy. Down is the 'side lean' when down is not target,and this step directly faces the down pull fo gravity, turning it into push upwards/support.

Now if kerf isn't deep enough, it could crumble, as bark gives away and wood isn't hit to perform function. If it is too deep, the vertical leverage length across the hinge device is too short, so there is a sweet zone, of jsut right.

In a larger victim, the weight and the leverage both compound agianst you as they grow together, forces becoming immense quickly from the compunding multipliers. Take quite a kerf to be solid and not crumble, and then there is the loss of the precious hinge leverage, when each fiber is more depended on than in lighter victim. So, sweet spot very elusive to non-existant! The force are outside the duty range for the trick, the tradeoff of dutch push up to loss of hinge leverage not as realistic.

i think the tapered hinge and step side dutch's work very well bucking, releasing pressure in a controlled fashion to target, and a good time to polish skills, and getting used to looking at it from all angles.




As far as everyone here being borne knowing these things; noone every took me out and showed me, i fumbled with Dent's skinny book for quite awhile alone, looking at the funny drawings, then some time to realize they were about all the same strategy, jsut applied to different angles of force and how the angle of the hinge recieved that pressure, and how to alter the natural balancing efforts of Nature to your target from there. i had to go over and over it again to get that simplicity to sink in tried to ask people about it.......; perhaps i am a lil'slow.

A conclusion is just were you stop; not the science.

i think the hinge mechanism has more things to exploit.

Obvioulsy as ye, trees are some pretty, shady charachters to hang out with!

 

[a_lopa]

pop off the stump,top cut first thou murph.leaning back.no rope 1 wedge and a 25t cat it was actually the best drop of the day

 

[SteveBullman]

jeeez man, get over yourself

 

[NebClimber]

Daniel:

Can you direct me to a place on-line where I can read your article?

Steven

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

First article in: July-2004 TCIA

 

[murphy4trees]

pg 8

 

[NeTree]

It should be noted...

At least Murph made the effort to get published.

That's gotta be worth sumthin'.

 

[geofore]

E-lessons

Then again you could go here and and find it said and done another way. http://forestry.about.com/od/chainsaws/

 

[Nathan Wreyford]

I think the article was awesome. It may seem light but it is important. Tree work is full of things that everyone should know but when I drive around or read the injury thread, obviously a lot of tree workers don't know.

The biggest felling error I see regularly is cutting through a powerful tool, the hinge .

I do think the article has been covered at length - kinda like Murph's admiration for BJ.

.02