Follow-up Success on Honing Heavy Scratches - With New Ring & Hone, Compression Up 50

[etbrown4]

Many posters on this great site may recall our spirited discussion about the pros and cons of 2 cycle cylinder honing about a month ago. The story ends with my saw being back together, running perfectly. Compression is up from 90 to 140. Investment= $28 hone and a $5 ring.

Opinions varied widely from "throw it out", to something like, "sure, we hone cylinders all the time with great success". One point which was in general agreement all around was that, generally less honing is better than more, because you can easily carry honing too far.

Please note, I did not get 100% of the scratches out. I chose to stop maybe a little early and err on the side of caution. I could have done more, but decided not to! Based on the tech literature, I believe I did not enlarge the bore more than 1/4 - 1/2 a thousandth - though probably less.

Several posters asked me to post the before and after pics. Let me say that I think this is probably the 3rd cylinder I've ever honed, and all before were with a 3 stone flat hone. This time I used a flex hone or ball hone, and was careful to select a 320 grit. I probably could have used a less expensive 240 grit, but I wanted to remove the least amount of bore possible. I know a lot of guys use the flat hones and apparently do fine. I was a little concerned that flat style of hone could get caught in a port. (Though I know some guys use them successfully)

According to articles I read online, the almost microscopic scratches or cross hatching are helpful in seating the ring and are key to getting good compression. The pics are zoomed way in. To the naked eye, the newly honed cylinder is now a very, very smooth cylinder. The reflections from the flash in those intentional ultra fine 'honing scratches' make it look like shiny steel or iron, but it's not. (I think it's an alloy) Though my cylinder was not Nikasil, I would not hesitate to hone one with a flex hone made for Nikasil. Again, finer grit is better.

I bought the hone from a guy named Gary at Welcome To EngineHones.com for $28. He has hones for regular cylinders and those plated with Nikasil. Gary is glad to give advice too. (P.S. I've never met him)

The process was simple.
I oiled up the hone liberally with 30w oil. (Oil goes everywhere, so cover up, or go outside!)
Hold on tightly - the hone is about 4mm larger than the cyl., and there is a lot of resistance.
I entered the cylinder with my battery drill at 1/4 speed, and then went up to about 800 rpm.
I stroked, in and out, a total of 15 times, over about 7-8 seconds. That was 'in' 15 times and back to the top 15 times.
To create the cross hatching I went in and out As Fast As Possible.
The results speak for themselves, and as mentioned above, are not perfect, but good enough for me, and saw runs great.

Thanks to all who contributed before. I appreciate all the input.
Knowledge coupled with some experience and some care, is a beautiful thing!

Let me know if you can't view the pics.
Maybe there is a way to copy and paste them into this post.

View attachment 217151
View attachment 217152
View attachment 217150

 

[67L36Driver]

I assume this is of a cast iron liner?????

 

[chuckwood]

honing chrome?

Many posters on this great site may recall our spirited discussion about the pros and cons of 2 cycle cylinder honing about a month ago. The story ends with my saw being back together, running perfectly. Compression is up from 90 to 140. Investment= $28 hone and a $5 ring.

I read that thread with interest. I'm going to attempt restoring a 52 mm cylinder for a Husky L77. My cylinder is not nikasil, it's chrome. It's also got some scratches that look similar to what yours had. I'm gonna try getting the aluminum transfer out first with acid, then maybe following up with a hone if it needs it. I'm wondering about how thick the chrome plating is on a chainsaw cylinder and about what the odds are of ruining it if I hone too much. Looks like your method has worked just fine. You mentioned you think your cylinder has a cast iron liner. There is a website, www.chainsawcollectors.se - I believe, that lists specific info like this for about every saw ever made. You can look any saw up and find out if it's iron, chrome, or nikasil. I believe cast iron liners went out of style back in the 50's or 60's and they switched to chrome plating.

 

[etbrown4]

Most of the articles I have read say that Nikasil is around 2-3 thousandths.

I think I read that you can hone Nkisil for up to 15 seconds with 320 grit (though I would not recommend going that long) and still remove less than 1/2 of a thousandth.

I would think think that chrome would be at least 3 thousandths or more.

You can ask the honing dude, Gary, what he recommends for chrome.

My cylinder was NOT Cast Iron. It is some aluminum looking alloy, but not sure what it is, but the saw is about 5-10 years old. (not sure because I inherited it)

Here is the deal. We can choose to hone or not.

In my case it was either hone it or throw it in the trash. It's a no-brainer

 

[Roanoker494]

I assume this is of a cast iron liner?????

Pretty sure it is off a Stihl since his previous thread asked about honing a Stihl cylinder. Plus I do not recall ever seeing a piston ported cylinder that was cast iron lined.

I read that thread with interest. I'm going to attempt restoring a 52 mm cylinder for a Husky L77. My cylinder is not nikasil, it's chrome. It's also got some scratches that look similar to what yours had. I'm gonna try getting the aluminum transfer out first with acid, then maybe following up with a hone if it needs it. I'm wondering about how thick the chrome plating is on a chainsaw cylinder and about what the odds are of ruining it if I hone too much. Looks like your method has worked just fine. You mentioned you think your cylinder has a cast iron liner. There is a website, Chainsaw Collectors - I believe, that lists specific info like this for about every saw ever made. You can look any saw up and find out if it's iron, chrome, or nikasil. I believe cast iron liners went out of style back in the 50's or 60's and they switched to chrome plating.

If your cylinder is usable without honing I would not do it. If the cylinder is not useable without honing then you have nothing to loose. The chrome lining is very thin and you can burn through it very easily.

 

[Chris J.]

Original thread...

http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/188529.htm

 

[Dan_IN_MN]

OP

Well written post!

Question.....I've heard that lighter lubricant is better for honing….. Was there a reason for using the 30w oil?

I have a link in my sig on embeding pics.

 

[surfincr]

I've honed both my 020t and 045, it brought the compression right up and both run perfectly. i had to pick up two different sizes due to the size of the cylinders. one came from sears and the other from autozone for under $14 each.

 

[etbrown4]

I've only honed 3 cylinders so, in truth, I'm a novice on honing. (I have rebuilt a few big diesels including a Cummins 350 years ago)

You can certainly use 'Honing Oil' and pay the extra for it, if you choose to.

I personally feel that for this purpose oil is oil, and the main point is to use the finest grit you can get by with, and stay in there as short a time as possible, and really stroke that hone!

 

[blsnelling]

It takes a LOT more than most people think to go through the coating with a proper 320-grit ball hone. You did good.

 

[heimannm]

Pretty sure it is off a Stihl since his previous thread asked about honing a Stihl cylinder. Plus I do not recall ever seeing a piston ported cylinder that was cast iron lined.

Many of the McCulloch 10 Series saws have cast iron liners and all are piston ported.

I don't know about modern saws, seems like I am mostly stuck with the old stuff...

Mark

 

[steve316]

honing

A true hone has 2 guides & 2 stones and will remove the high spots and make your cylinder round.I have stones from 60 grit to 600.
also will remove .0005 to .005 with a little effert.A ball hone is a glase buster and made to nock off any sharp edge.Running a ball hone or a brush hone before you install new rings is a very good idea. your rings will seal better & last longer.Steve

 

[rbmopar]

I'm glad it worked good for you. The key is you did your research first so you knew not to hone for very long, and not try to get all of the scratches out. Thanks for posting up your results, I'm still not a fan of honing though.

 

[Dan_IN_MN]

Pretty sure it is off a Stihl since his previous thread asked about honing a Stihl cylinder. Plus I do not recall ever seeing a piston ported cylinder that was cast iron lined.

Many of the McCulloch 10 Series saws have cast iron liners and all are piston ported.

I don't know about modern saws, seems like I am mostly stuck with the old YELLOW stuff...

Mark

Fixed it for you Mark!

 

[half_full]

(I have rebuilt a few big diesels including a Cummins 350 years ago)

Cummins was around 350 years ago:msp_tongue:
Sorry, it's Friday...

Thanks for the follow up. I may give it a try on a "nothing to lose" cylinder

 

[etbrown4]

Here is a better image of the finished honing, or the point at which I decided to stop.
The previously posted image is a little misleading and makes the finished product look less smooth that it is.

I'll try to post the before shot, so you can see the difference.

They appear in the next post.

 

[etbrown4]

As you can see, it's not perfect so I decided to quit while I thought I had enough done.
My first attempt to post pics..... I hope it works.

 

[splitpost]

looks like you still have some transfer on that cyl

 

[Wots]

Many posters on this great site may recall our spirited discussion about the pros and cons of 2 cycle cylinder honing about a month ago. The story ends with my saw being back together, running perfectly. Compression is up from 90 to 140. Investment= $28 hone and a $5 ring.

Opinions varied widely from "throw it out", to something like, "sure, we hone cylinders all the time with great success". One point which was in general agreement all around was that, generally less honing is better than more, because you can easily carry honing too far.

Please note, I did not get 100% of the scratches out. I chose to stop maybe a little early and err on the side of caution. I could have done more, but decided not to! Based on the tech literature, I believe I did not enlarge the bore more than 1/4 - 1/2 a thousandth - though probably less.

Several posters asked me to post the before and after pics. Let me say that I think this is probably the 3rd cylinder I've ever honed, and all before were with a 3 stone flat hone. This time I used a flex hone or ball hone, and was careful to select a 320 grit. I probably could have used a less expensive 240 grit, but I wanted to remove the least amount of bore possible. I know a lot of guys use the flat hones and apparently do fine. I was a little concerned that flat style of hone could get caught in a port. (Though I know some guys use them successfully)

According to articles I read online, the almost microscopic scratches or cross hatching are helpful in seating the ring and are key to getting good compression. The pics are zoomed way in. To the naked eye, the newly honed cylinder is now a very, very smooth cylinder. The reflections from the flash in those intentional ultra fine 'honing scratches' make it look like shiny steel or iron, but it's not. (I think it's an alloy) Though my cylinder was not Nikasil, I would not hesitate to hone one with a flex hone made for Nikasil. Again, finer grit is better.

I bought the hone from a guy named Gary at Welcome To EngineHones.com for $28. He has hones for regular cylinders and those plated with Nikasil. Gary is glad to give advice too. (P.S. I've never met him)

The process was simple.
I oiled up the hone liberally with 30w oil. (Oil goes everywhere, so cover up, or go outside!)
Hold on tightly - the hone is about 4mm larger than the cyl., and there is a lot of resistance.
I entered the cylinder with my battery drill at 1/4 speed, and then went up to about 800 rpm.
I stroked, in and out, a total of 15 times, over about 7-8 seconds. That was 'in' 15 times and back to the top 15 times.
To create the cross hatching I went in and out As Fast As Possible.
The results speak for themselves, and as mentioned above, are not perfect, but good enough for me, and saw runs great.

Thanks to all who contributed before. I appreciate all the input.
Knowledge coupled with some experience and some care, is a beautiful thing!

Let me know if you can't view the pics.
Maybe there is a way to copy and paste them into this post.

View attachment 217151
View attachment 217152
View attachment 217150

Hello!

Im working at local Stihl dealer in europe.

I must say honing scored cylinders is not offical service because Stihl dont aprove nothing but new P&C set. Many customers dont want to pay 1/3 1/2 of new saw price for just little oops i forgot to put oil in gas or what ever others reasons its scored. So i use Flex Hone ball hones.

So far i have done around 20 saws and 3 trimmers and no customer have ever complained anything about that!

I can say for Stihl cylinder is so good i have never met so scored cylinder(because lean mixture or no oil) what cant be saved with honing.

---------

I personally use ball hone whats bit larger than Cyl bore is and use Stihl HP super oil for honing. Before honing i wash cyl with usual motor cleaning fluid. I hone about max 30 seconds. Then they are almost clean from AL waste and other crap. U still have few scratches at outlet port but u cant hone or make them disapear with acid anyway.

I did test with FS 80 cylinder. I honed it about 3-4 mins and i still not got trough the Nikasil plating!!!

----

My english is bit bad and rusty but i hope you got my point and my proof is that ballhoning actually works really well. Tearing up nik at ports is crap. It can happend maybe with other brand cylinders or with totally wrong hones.

 

[etbrown4]

In basketball, this is a "free shot at the goal" with a trashed cylinder.

Some might remember that a month ago, Scotchbrite was the #1 forum suggestion for a scored cylinder. In my view, someone working with a Scotchbrite might allow 3-4 hours, to achieve what the hone did in about 8 seconds, except that the work of the hone is 'true.'

We always have the judgement call of how far to go. The risks of overdoing it are ever present. You don't not want to sacrifice the ring end gap, and the resultant potential loss of compression. Unless you've honed a few dozen or a few hundred, it's a hard call.

You can go in with 180g or 240g. Heck you can bore the cylinder and go back with oversize rings. That usually is cost prohibitive.

What's interesting is that last time this was discussed we had about 60 responses. About 9 out of 10 posters said don't hone - ever! A few posters however reported great success with honing cylinders.

Good post from Wots in Europe. Great job on saving what sounds like 23 pieces of equipment by honing! It would be good to hear from Wots as to what grit hone he uses in the Flex Hone series. Has he used the 3 legged stone hones?

It's interesting that at least one poster has suggested that the honing performed here might not be enough. Maybe so. Maybe not. The real key is how long the repair lasts. Only time will tell.

One great thing about this excellent forum is you get to share experiences with a lot of great guys who have been there and done that. Everyone gets smarter.

The good news is that every time we hone a bad cylinder, we get to use our best judgement. We can hone on to our heart's content, or just to pitch the old on in the trash without even trying. It's a free shot at the goal.:smile2: