Frame size vs ccs vs cost.

[Tony Snyder]

Here is a question I have often wondered about.

You have two or more displacement sizes that are obviously on the same frame size (same weight, housings from same tooling, etc), examples in point; 62cc, 65cc, 72cc Huskys, then 62 cc, 65cc, 72cc Jonsereds, then 956, 962 Efcos. You guys may be aware of others in other brands.

This brings two obvious questions:

1. Except for what is probably an artificial price difference, why would anyone want less than the largest displacement on that frame size and weight?

2. Having come from an engineering career in manufacturing, I can say with some certainty that there is not a hill of beans difference in the manufactured cost of different displacements on the same frame size. (That is of course unless there are design differences like open vs closed ports, and that still wouldn't be very great)

 

[Tony Snyder]

continued

It actually brings one more good question; Does the factory create an artificial price differential, that is, one unsubstantiated by manufacturing cost differential, or does the distributor create that?

I'll bet there are some of you guys that have enough industry insite to enlighten us on this subject. Dagger? Walt Galer?

 

[JimL]

I dont think that the MS290 - 310 - 390 of stihls are much different.

 

[treeclimber165]

All manufacturers do it, not just saw makers. A car with a V-6 will cost $2000-$4000 more than the same car with a 4-banger. Try pricing chippers with a gas motor and the same chipper with a turbo diesel.

 

[John in MA]

Yeah, but those are completely different engines. A turbo diesel has a lot more parts and machining than a gas model. A larger saw just has a larger jug and piston, maybe a different crank and cosmetic details. The only "real" price difference I can see would be to cover additional fixtures and tooling. Not much if you sell a decent volume of saws.

 

[tony marks]

an example,although not saws. the 18 kohler command and the 20 command.
same everything . only difference is the
carb. adjustment. oh yea ,same carb. also just set different.remove a little limiter screw.

 

[jokers]

I think you guys are missing the point, it`s not what it cost to manufacture, it`s what the market will bear for higher performance. The perceived reasons for so much variety on a given frame size might be pretty lame, but for a manufacturer, having several models, ie: price points, on a single frame helps them achieve a greater economy of scale. Many parts will be interchangeable helping drive down production costs and inventory costs on both the wholesale and retail levels. Russ

 

[Tony Snyder]

Joker, do you know if the invented price differential exist at factory level pricing or is it decided at the distribution level?

The point is the consumer gets it in the end, literally. For instance there should probably be maybe $5 or $10 difference between a 62cc Electrolux and a 72cc Electrolux. I'll bet there is little difference in cost at the factory level.

Yes, I realize this situation exists in many products, another prime example mentioned above is in small engines.

This is marketeering vs marketing. I regard those people that make these decisions to treat the customers this way with strong contempt.

I think everything should be priced fairly at cost plus markup. Let the chips fall fairly.

 

[Fish]

I think the pricing comes from the manufacturer, and in a lot
of cases, the ratio of cost of manufacture to selling price vary
with each unit, and right or wrong have little to do with it.
For example, when Husqvarna sold the same saw and trimmer
that Walmart sold, except the Walmart version was green, they
got $100 extra per unit, and sold a lot of them. This move
sacrificed some on their reputation, but the marketing is
controlled by people who are concerned with short term numbers
and not brand name respect from the consumers. They figure
that they will be working for the competion in a few years
anyway, so they want to male themselves look better now.
Stihl has been cranking out some junk too, so they are not
innocent either. Homelite and McColluch used to make some
good units a while back, but making a cheaper "consumer"
product has led them to their current place. Poulan {Electrolux}
is heading there as well, so is Stihl.
The 021,023,025 are essentially the same model, as well
as the 029,310,039. Parts interchangeability helps lower costs,
but I do not think the savings neccessarily carry over to the
consumer, but just add to the profits for the manufacturer.
But this is a capitalistic world, and fair to the consumer is
not an issue, but profit. My complaint with these tactics, is that
damaging a good reputatuion that has taken decades to build
for the sake of short term sales numbers is a bad strategy.

 

[wak110]

I was told by a Harley Mechanic that the cost difference between the 883cc Sportster engine and the 1200cc engine, at the factory, is $19-$20. Check out the diffence in price between them when they hit the dealer!

 

[Dagger]

I thought my ears were burnin!...been awful busy show season ya know! I just got back from OshKosh and I saw an engine that some of you fellas would just drool over...8 cylinder radial config with 8 chainsaw jugs on it..30 lbs!..and 30 horses at 3200 rpm...ya 3200...wonder what it would be at 13,000 huh???

Anyhow,,you are certainly right Tony. A manufacturer takes raw material which he buys by the pound and turns it into parts he sells by the piece. the difference in a piston for a 32cc saw and a 90 cc saw is very small..the mold cost the same..the machining cost is very close, and the raw aluminum cant hardly even be figured.
The Price level is determined by what the market will bear.
the volume of parts produced in a run has the largest influence on the manufacturers cost, much more than any other consideration. This is why Electrolux has consolidated so many brand labels into their production. They are no doubtedly the highest profit company operating at this time in the world chainsaw market. You posted a price list just below and it reflected there recommended list prices I believe. But several saws on that list can be had for half of those prices if one doesnt care for Orange. the 141 can be bought under the craftsman label for 119 and poulan for 99 bucks. Just to cite one example.

When the board at electrolux tells Dave Zerfoss that he needs to get his profits up, he has many directions he can take. Maybe he will jack up prices on the high volume saws...maybe he will raise prices on parts, maybe he will reduce warranty payments. maybe he will raise prices on the low volume/high margin saws. (thats everything a pro might consider) remember..the manufacturers cost difference is not alot different than the high volume saws.
Now of course, this is not to saw that a 141 and a 395 cost Big E the same to manufacture..Bigger bearings..closed ports vs open ports cost more...but it IS to say that he will look at the volume of saws sold in a model/size category vs the profit..and consider the competitions pricing, and many other things that in the big picture will show him where he might get an increase in profit without loosing market share in that size category. WE used to call the 4 to 5 cube category the "money saws", because we could get more profit there than any other size...this is slightly different now and I would say that it might be the extended to 5.5
Inevitably Big E will continue to shift production of parts to less costly factories( read that Italy and Mexico and so on) and integrate as many "modular engines" as they can into more models and brands so the production rates are as high as possible and the cost per run the lowest, thereby maximizing their profit.
Here is a prediction for you all to consider, We are begining to see in the saw market a collaboration of previously fierce competitors. They are watching the Blitzkrieg from big E pumping money into the purchace of Chainsaw manufacturing facilities all over the world, and consolidating production of components wherever it is most effiecient. This is making them nervous enough to team up together for higher production/lower cost to compete with the socialist giant. I believe this will continue, and it will certainly be to the benefit of the consumer. As communication and information become much easier(read that INTERNET) the consumer is becoming more and more savy each day. Already the consumer is aware of the high price demanded by highly advertised brands and he is also aware that lesser advertised brands are the same product, and he will put his money there, for as we say in America."my momma didnt raise no fools".

When the Manufacturer loses respect from the dealers that sell products to the pros, he will simply abandon them and continue to produce products for the high volume mass market. The plant manager of a factory certainly does not care if his casting machine is producing a open port cylinder or a closed port cylinder or a quad port cylinder..he just cares that he produces LOTS of cylinders, and he keeps the people in that dept workin every day.
History repeats itself.
slightly different path..but same destination!

Look for more competitors sharing models to compete with Big E as the future unfolds and the germans band together to combat saw socialism!

 

[Fish]

I was at the expo, and I was hanging around the Husky booth.
and the word dagger just slipped out. I awoke the next
morning laying in a ditch.
His name is anethema in the chainsaw world.
I am thankful they did not take it personally.
I hate an engineer as much as the next fellow, but they hate
the name/word DAGGER!. I do not know why, he seems so
likable on this forum.

 

[eyolf]

Hiya, Dagg'...I'm interested in the 8 cyl radial you said you saw at Oshkosh. You said 8 chainsaw jugs? 2 stroke? 1 common crankcase,(ungodly complicated!) or multiple?

 

[Dagger]

Hehe ya Fish, you wouldnt find me in that booth fer but a short time, for I have few friends left there, they have FIRED all the good hands. I paid my respects to the few that are there, and then went back to my booth a coupla rows south a there!

And Eyolf..there is a site for this radial..im gonna find it and post it on a new thread for you...it is a dandy!

 

[seesaw]

Hey Dagger,
Sorry I couldn't make it up to Oshkosh this year like we talked about down in Louisville. Couldn't work the schedule around to get up there. Work has been getting in the way of my fun lately! Sounds like I missed a good one...again. Did you find the site for that radial yet? Sounds awesome!

Fish, Don't be dissin' the Dag Man! Ole' Dagger seems likeable on this forum because he is! He's one of thoses guys you can't help but like. Even though he is one of those engineer types, his knowledge and experience is second to only a few in the saw biz.

 

[Tony Snyder]

corruption!

Soooo! The pricing prictices are just as corrupt as I thought they might be.

I have to have something to be angry about, it keeps me going.

We need a Joe McCarthy type to go after them, senate hearings and all.

I can see it now the Republicans will claim the saw makers should profit what the market will bear with immunity to taxes. With their huge profits they will invest in a Star Wars program where there will be laser saws that will solve national defense problems as well as cut timber.

The Democrats will claim that the needy should be able to buy saws at a 30% discount, and if you are at less than 200% of poverty, you will get free chain saws. If you make more than that but your annual out of pocket saw cost is over $3300 you will then be issued unlimited free saws. You will pay a $50 co-pay for, Solos, Dolmars Shindiawas, Echos, or Electroluxs , and a $10 copay for Stihls.

 

[Fish]

I wasn't "dissin" the Dagman, but was trying to find him and
meet him at the Expo. I dropped his name at a few booths,
but the saw prescence was light, and a couple of people remembered him from way back. But I was just joking about
the waking up in a ditch.

The expo has been more dissappointing each year, so I may not go next year, but I wanted to meet Dagger this year.

I joke with people here, but mean no angst, just joking around.
I usually piss off somebody every now and then, but oh well.

 

[Dagger]

Hey Fish...dont woory about me..in fact, I really enjoy your humor ! I guess we just speak the same language pard!
and Seesaw...thx fer the kind words..jeez..where do I send the check?
ya OSHKOSH was good...sales were REALLY good, I'll tell ya about it if ya send me an email so I can get your address back..had to reformat this dang puter when I got home..lost a ton a stuff.....grrrrr.....
The best sight at the airshow was when the reno unlimiteds were racin a 10 lap race, and Hoot Gibson in a F2G Corsair with a 4630 blew a jug clear off of it at 550 mph trying to pass a P-51 mustang down the straight...man...neatest thing was he just pulled straight up and went from 150ft to 5000 at half throttle..smoke just pouring out...on the radio he said, " temp was goin up so I just needed some cool air quick"
Ya know ya couldnt even tell by the sound anything was wrong..he keep it runnin and landed with a hole in the cowl as big as a basketball where the jug departed thru it for parts unknown!
Course..it was still hittin on the remaining 35 cylinders!

 

[dbabcock]

Dagger,
Is there such a thing as a 36 cylinder radial (4 rows of 9 cylinders)? I always thought that the Pratt R-4360, 28 cylinder (4 rows of 7 cylinders) was the most for a radial. It's certainly the largest aircraft piston engine ever made. A 36 cylinder would certainly be something. Just curious.

 

[Dagger]

I dunno Babcock.But you are most likely right,.that P&W is 4 rows of 7 and not 9, im gettin to old to mutliply i reckon...its quite a powerplant, and I wish I knew more about em, this is the one from the B-36 isnt it?
Radials absoultly fascinate me!
Do they call it a double wasp because it is 2 14 cyl wasps put together?