general industry trend

[murphy4trees]

Seems like during the 90's there weren't a lot of new companies getting into my local market... everyone was so pumped about computer/IT work. Demand for tree work was high and competition was low which kept steady work at relatively high prices..
Seems like over the past few years there have been a lot more new companies working cheap and driving prices down...
Maybe I'm just not hungry anymore...

 

[Nathan Wreyford]

Originally posted by murphy4trees
Maybe I'm just not hungry anymore...

Would that be so bad?

Good to see you are watching trends. I am interested to hear input on this thread mainly because while running my own biz, I noticed cycles are bigger than a year. I got out of university in 97 so I am new to the work force.

Before I closed shop this year, I noticed that after 4 yrs, I was one of the older companies in town
I also had the same feeling, people around me were doing the same work for cheap. I don't mean hacks either, repudable businesses that were new to the town, but very cheap.

A lot of companies work just to have cashflow and retain employees even if jobs are not profitable. I have no urge to work just to make action, I want to see a profit. If there isn't one, I have never had a problem walking away.

My short 4yrs owning a biz taught me that it is like driving a train...

 

[Nathan Wreyford]

Originally posted by RockyJSquirrel
You can claim all the experience and education you want, but the job is usually going to the guy with the lowest bid.

Yet even more evidence that money talks and BS walks....

That is why it helps to do more than claim education or spout off certifications and acronyms. When you educate clients, that is when you are no longer just "claiming".

Your clients like mine are not tree owners, they are owners of tree companies. I find they do compensate for experience and education.....

 

[ORclimber]

Originally posted by murphy4trees
Seems like during the 90's ... everyone was so pumped about computer/IT work. Demand for tree work was high and ...high prices..
Seems like over the past few years there have been a lot more new companies working cheap and driving prices down...

During the '90's the economy was booming and our monied clients were raking it in on the stock market, bonuses, etc. Clients had the cash to drop on tree work.

The economy has been worse the last few years and people haven't had the disposable income or false security a bull market brings. More clients have been watching their pocket books.

How's that for a theory?

 

[ROLLACOSTA]

i live in a small town with a population of around about 160,000

and in my yellow pages there are 9 companys listed that are directly from my town thats not including ,guys from other towns and villages but cover my area....then there are landscapers who do the odd tree ..then guys who do the work partime..and not forgetting another 5 or 6 who advertise in local news papers ..the market in my area is nothing to do with economic changes its simply a case of a saturated market plain and simple..to many arborists and not enough trees..our rates have actualy gone down over the last few years when you take into consideration inflation...i have too diversify i do reports ,stumps falling and pruning ..and im going to move into tree health something like terravent.....we are lucky weve been going a few years ..but i dont know how some of the new boys eat let alone pay for equipment

 

[ROLLACOSTA]

OR i agree with you too a point but theres still too many arbs out there....

 

[Reed]

Nate, you KNOW I'm outside a small town....and there are more self-proclaimed tree people than clothing, food, gas, and liquor stores combined. Even a new guy, like the doctors who like to move their families here, came down and set-up shop from Dallas. I think they just want to leave urban America, but this area's falsely known for artisans and craftsman and that's just an excuse to justify the tourist crap being sold and boost real estate appraisals.

Basically, the proof's in the pudding - when the local ENT or Osteopath manages a mortality rate that soars over his urban peer's success stats, or the "tree surgeon with credentials" leaves a path of dying oaks, the people soon figure it out. It takes something unique and thoughful to stand out, and I know you have it but maybe haven't exercised it yet. Something tells me you're victimizing yourself, maybe aren't using you entire resource list. Sometimes, like myself, we are our own worst competition - doubt enters and we slide. Look at where I am compared to where I was!!!

Austin's a lot like we are here - lot's of false profits banking on the fake "green" mentality just like the idiotic signs proclaiming "Edward's Aquafer Recharge Zone" put-in to satisfy the tofu eaters but do nothing to guard against run-off pollution or subdivision explosion mentality. The end result is blind growth with rhetorical measures tinted with green, the miracle wonder color.

People in Austin care little about the live oak, in spite of claims....that's my opinion, that's why we have an epidemic now. "Experts" are a dime a dozen, especially when they drive around in propane-powered trucks but buy crap from WalMart and sit idle communting on 180 from Leander to downtown, thinking they are saving the planet. These guys and gals think they are tree savers and gladly spill a few ounces of ALAMO on your root flares while sending a couple bucks to the Sierra Club and have the bumper sticker to prove it.

You have the classic Austin syndrome in addition to being away from your home state. Been there, done that.

Times are changing, horrors are real, and we got something that not many folks have - keep that in mind, in spite of little or dwindling interest to hire us for what we know and how we do it. Think. Tap those inner resources, there's more to us than we beat ourselves up with thinking we're dinosaurs and the economy's running away without us. You have a great education, maybe not applicable for the rising demands, but then create one, don't rely on what other's create.

I'm off to climb my ass off today, wish you were helping me...I'd pay you $400 to help each day 'cause I'm charging $800 and splitting that is fair enough - at least on this job. Four hundred is more than fair for what we do. Public defenders or recent veterinary grads don't get that!!

Chill,
RH

 

[Nathan Wreyford]

I wish I was there to work today. April in the hill country is THE time. Stayed home today due to snow.

Fburg is growing...fast. People trying to escape the suburbs and make Fburg just like where they came from. They live there a year and complain about "the new people from the big city moving in"

The only thing green about Austin's attitude is that it is "in style" so people will pay what they have to to be "in".

Austin is a cool city and all, but the longer I am away, the less I miss it. More and more everyday, I miss good friends and road trips (If it takes you less than 2hours to drive to Mason, you are doing it the wrong way )

On that note, I have to go catch the subway

I am having a hard time figuring out the economy here...at times, the culture too.

 

[ROLLACOSTA]

NATHAN what made you work in germany ??

 

[Nathan Wreyford]

Not what, WHO

I married one of them and figured it was a good opportunity to get some work experience and perfect my German. Texas was treating me fine, but I just wanted to see more of the world plus I can't ask her to stay in Texas if I don't even try Europe for a while....

 

[Stumper]

RC, My "small town" has a population of 12,500-but a lot of town lies outside the city limits so really 25,000. There are 5 "tree Services" running ads in the Daily Paper and 10 operations licensed by the city. All the workers put together only total about 15-20 so I suppose that we could all stay busy ad infinitum BUT the total of trees that could be worked on and the number of owners who will pay to have it done are very different. I keep shaking my head and wondering how long this will continue.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

The Metro area here has +2m people in it, lot's of them laid off and think that all you need is a saw and a truck to do the work. More of the landscape maint. are doing it themselves. People seem even less willing to part with their money then usual.

On the flip side it's still very hard to find desent labor.

I work with 3 companies regularly and 4 others semi regular, all of them are working day to day, or maybe week to week. Most of them have had several week backlogs in the past.

Two of them are "trading jobs" at least once a week now. Sometimes I regret introducing them

 

[BigJohn]

I'm hungry too. I keep thinking about how stupid am I for working for someone and not myself. How many idiots out there with a ladder chainsaw and truck makeing twice, three, four times the money I am? I could work one day a week and bring home just about the same as I get for working a 40 hour work week. Granted I wouldn't get paid holidays and medical insurance but hmmm....?

I been wanting to hook up with some other companies in my neighborhood doing some sub work but I thing their egos would get in the way. They act like I am saying you know I'd be better at makeing love your wife how about it. The guys around here are a bit stand offish, old school and non believers.

Seems like side work is off to slow start this year.

 

[murphy4trees]

Its a given that when the economy was rolling at full tilt in the 90's that there would be a strong demand for the work and therefore prices would be high... No question about it... Its so obvious its hardly worth mentioning...
The point I was making is that usually a market with many service providers will tend to self regulate... Meaning that as profits get high, more competition will enter the market, increasing supply and bringing down prices... That didn't happen in the 90's so much.... Seemed like us 40 somethings were the last generation to get into the business....
Until now... now it seems like there are a lot of new companies in the market... driving prices down.. I think during the 90's IT revolution, all the young folks entering the working population were all looking at IT as the way to "make it"... Once that bubble burst.. breaking a sweat climbing trees doesn't seem so bad...

 

[ORclimber]

Originally posted by murphy4trees
now it seems like there are a lot of new companies in the market... driving prices down.. I think during the 90's IT revolution, all the young folks entering the working population were all looking at IT as the way to "make it"... Once that bubble burst.. breaking a sweat climbing trees doesn't seem so bad...

Caused by ... the economy tanking....

I have labor ready guys tell me all the time that tree work isn't that hard, after dragging brush a few days. These are the guys who lost steady jobs due to the economy. They've never climbed a tree, but they see how much I'm charging and the wheels in their heads start turning.

 

[Dadatwins]

Lot of younger guys I see around are 20 somethings that are college educated and still can not find work. Talked to one guy spent 40g 's on college for degree in computers and his job was out sourced to India. He took another loan out and is doing landscape work. Most computer literate grasscutter I ever met. This biz can not be outsourced like that so with flood of people losing tech jobs they have to pay the bills somehow. There is a lot more competition around and low bid usually gets the job unless you can sell your service better than everyone else. Bad thing is average Joe homeowner could care less how much you know or how well you work they want low price. Trend will continue with everyone trying to hustle wherever they can to make a buck, just have to find a niche somewhere or a gimmick that the others do not have. Now that's the real trick

 

[ArtB]

Am not in the business but have had a lot of contacts with guys when they dumped their chips (covered 3-1/2 acres of blackberry in the last year and a half). Businees for the pros here in Pacific NW looks good from the number ot guys wanting to dump chips; also, you won't find many amatuers willing to try dropping a 150 foot fir in between houses 30 feet apart or drop a similar size cottonwood leaning over a house, much less climb them, so the pros seem to keep busy, especially after the windstorms.

Of longer term consequence in the urban areas, up to about 10 years ago the better developments left many of the sound mature D fir in place, and built houses in among them. A few houses get damaged every windstorm and the 'fear factor' generates a lot of business for the arborists and climbers.

Now; however, due to the 'enlightened' urban growth principles, new developments clear cut and build the houses 10 feet apart (no joke, there are lots of developments with houses having greater square footage than the lots) so there will be reduced future business in removing tall firs from amongst dwellings. It is a logged off suburbia.

The guys with the big cranes seem to keep making a good living here, they take out any fir over 24" 'free', charge $100 up per tree per smaller stuff. Probably would get a big business change (drop) if Canadian lumber import tarrifs repealed.

 

[geofore]

trends

It's nice to look back but things are moving forward, when old timers started, before personal cumputers, few had bucket trucks or used cranes. I knew few that had their saws power ported for preformance enhancment or used anything but chuck-N-duck chippers. Yuppies and urban sprawl weren't words yet and little was ever said in politically correct terms. It's not about where it used to be but where it's headed. 3 strand is 12 or 16 now and it's not hemp ar manila. PPE is required on the job, you'll live longer and be healthier wearing it.
Just look back at the archives and realise where the knots are now. A few years or so ago were they talking VT or SRT? After every storm you have the get rich quick guys buying a saw and making a fast buck but we aren't those guys, storm or not we're in it for the long haul, as in career. To remain a professional you need to never stop learning how to do new things, that's key to staying in buisness. You will always see the make a fast buck guys come and go in any field. It is about an education that you need and a lot of folks get it here with the flow of ideas that they would have never seen in the field. I think this site pushes you to be better at what you do or can do to stay abreast of the changes that are here to today and coming tomorrow. The biggest mistake you could make is to give up on being continually educated. Time to get off the stump.

 

[a_lopa]

competition has easily doubled here 5 years ago me and a few workmates joked that there would be a flood of small trucks pulling a chipper getting about,now there is.i feel you have to do all the work you can get, and try win as many small jobs that can be done by amatuers $100-$500 jobs how many times do you bust ass for 800 and then go do a fairly simpe job for 400-500.i quoted a job yesterday for 950 a climber i know rang to see if i had qouted and can he use my chipper if he gets the job .i know ive overpriced it as i already have a bit on.he will give me 500 to hire chipper stumgrinder it doesnt matter to me any which way it all pans out if you look after local guys who do the hard yards

 

[jmchristopher]

Daniel, I'm one of the newcomers in your turf, working more toward Villanova and Bryn Mawr. I have the advantage of a bigger company behind me, but that also means that my returns HAVE to be higher, just to pay for me and the company overhead. My client base grew by more than 40% last year.
The key, as has been said already, is to give value, build relationships, and follow through with what you promise. RELATIONSHIP is what gets me the job even when I know I'm high bid. I don't particularly worry about the bottomfeeders, but focus my attention on keeping my pipeline full of people who appreciate me, and are able and willing to pay for quality.
Look at one example, JB Ward, an old, well established company based here, that charges 110% the going rate and isn't taking any new customers, thankyou, but keeps their good clients very happy.
Good luck, man!