Growing pain

[heartland]

Sorry guys, this is going to be a rant.....I'm hoping that many of you will relate to this story.

Being new to the industry, I'm still learning my way with things.
-Correctly estimating the amount of time a job will take
-Creating a bid to support it
-Completing job in the ballpark
These are the things that rank on my top 5 list of most difficult things to accomplish so far.

I failed at all the above on a recent job: BIG TIME.... check it out. The job was all pruning work:

2, 50' Red Oaks (major crown cleaning)
2, 30' Pecans (crown thinning)
1, 20' Maple (major crown thinning)
1, 20' plum (light cleaning)
Grind 5, 12" stumps (I sub this work out..)
**all debris left at curbsite.. as big as you want (nice, eh?)

Before I give more details, I'll add one huge thing that I overlooked on this job: customer is a type-A perfectionist... the kind you cannot please. Totally anal-retentive about not having ANY watersprouts in any of the trees.

Deep breath........ remember, I messed up in every part of this job. Not only was this job an eye-opener wrt customer personalities, it was also the same wrt estimating.

Estimated Time to complete all work: 5 hrs
Actual Time to complete all work: 16 hrs

Price for tree service: $250
Price for grinding service: $130

It took me 3 visits to get even remotely close to pleasing this person. I was in the hole by the end of the 1st visit, the only thing driving me after that was integrity.

Whipped and beat by 9pm on the 3rd visit (hence, setting aside any desire for integrity), I wearily proposed that I deduct $50 from the price of the tree service in order to avoid climbing the monster Red Oak in order to remove "more" watersprouts.... there was no way I was coming back to this place of everlasting doom.

The customer reluctantly accepted my proposal and I was out of there with measly check for $330 as fast as my hand could turn the key and foot could hit the pedal.

What a painful experience this has been. After all my expenses, I barely made minimum wage. Ugh

On the bright side, I've learned a few things:
1. Need to read the customer's personality better in the future
2. I now know how long it takes me to prune a 50' red oak

Anybody else have similar growning pains?

 

[TREETX]

Welcome to my world

All I can say is it gets better. Sounds like you are selling yourself short. Sounds like you are hard on yourself too. That is good. Says a lot for who you are as a person that you took your lumps like a man instead of straining relations further by trying to ask for more dinero.

Those lumps and stings make you learn, sounds like your are learning. Also sounds like though you didn't get the return you wanted, you got an education. Of course that kind of education is hard on morale.

Sounds like you are faster in your head than in reality. I suffer from this too. When I get on a roll of underbidding, I usually start doing bids by the tree instead of by eyeballing the yard as a whole. Walk around, touch each tree, really - touch them. Look up at them, see ease of access and try to estimate total time to travel the tree, look around for targets that will cause extra time due to lowering, etc, and importantly, visualize moving the brush - is it a curbside tree? - a backyard tree? A backyard w/2foot wide gate? So now you've looked at that, put a total manhour to those tasks - still not thinking money, just man hours. Do that for each tree included, THEN multiply those manhours by your target rate ($50-60 is my target, it will vary). The number may seem high - go with your gut and try this methods, it works.

Your target manhour is more of an avg. Some jobs may be more like $25/manhr and others $75 = avg$50.

Not bad to throw in a customer service pad if you can get it. That little extra lets you deliver a little extra and keeps you from ultimately resenting the client.

Read your customer, get on the same page.

It gets better, go easy on yourself.

 

[NeTree]

I think we have all had an experience like this. What mine taught me is to be VERY specific in the quote/contract when spelling out the work to be done, and making sure the customer and I are on the same page as far as how much time I'll spend on each tree.

Don't be afraid to be assertive.

Sometimes you can back that up with good arboriculture... after all, how much green you remove in one pruning before adversely affecting the trees' health has to come into play, among other things.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

We had a customer recently, what a loon.
The job was to trim some trees around her house, including a crown cleaning on a suger maple. She wanted it "thinned out". we convinced her all it needed was a crown cleaning and some thinning would happen when we took out crossing branches, but all in all it looked great. Total job $600.
We did our thing and when she got home and saw our work she said it didn't look like we took enough out of the maple. We told her that we took out as much as we thought was best for the tree but that we would return and remove any limbs she wanted to point out. Well, she called back and said there were not any limbs that she could see that should come out.
Here's the catch, in the mean time, a storm had broken several branches in other trees, so she insisted we come out and fix them for free, because we didn't need to come back and fix the maple for free.
After a long argument, we had to give her the price of trimming the maple for free($120).

 

[Greg]

been there --too many times!

I'm really getting better about screwing myself like you did. It takes time, and then it will still happen now and then.
--Like was mentioned, price it per tree and look at every tree and how you are going to clean up after every tree and how long that will take.
-Don't let the customer standing around waiting for a number make you rush to throw out a number. If you've got number crunching to do, and you should on a job like that, tell the customer that this is going to take a few minutes to figure out, you can ring the bell to let him know you are finishied if he'd rather wait inside.
-Price it per tree and then back up and figure out if this a day job, a multi day job or a half day job. You really need to know what amount makes you happy after busting your a$$ all day/half day, and what it takes to meet your financial commitments. You can then compare the per tree price and your daily $$ needed and decided where your bid should land. Stick to it and NEVER cut a deal for an A$$HOLE add money for the BS you know you'll be dealing with.
---All of this gets harder to follow if you really want to do the work, or you really NEED the work, but stick to it. Aim high!!
-Those red oaks were easily $200 per tree.
Greg

 

[heartland]

Amen on the red oaks being at least $200 a peice. From hereon, I'll be looking at $250 for those....just to be safe.

This job has solidified the fact that my time is valuable. If a customer is not willing to pay what I need, that is fine... There will be others that will.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

What they said. It will happen again 20 years down the road too. Stupid things like not figuring how many dump trips in a large removal, or forgetting to look for utilities running through a tree, or checking some artwork uunder the tree to see if it can be moved....

Then like Erik mentioned, being more exact in your bid specific. Many people are too vague in their verbiage-

"Deadwood honeylocust should be remove deadwood 1 inch and larger from honeylocust".

A tree with a lot of sprouting should be "thin watersprouts in bur oak by 20%"

I'm also a big proponent of biding per tree or at least clumps. That way they can pick and choose and I have some negotiating room to come down on the price if they want it all, or a large portion.

 

[SilverBlue]

So all in all you paid your bills, and still made money for yourself. Not a real disaster considering that you had to pay for self-education. And the customer got the deal of the century. Hey who would bet that Tim will get a call back in a few years from that customer seeking more work? I would love to see the expression when he reads the more experienced estimate.

Looking back at this year so far I can say that my company has been blessed with really good customers. Only a few ‘particular’ ones that wanted some minor corrections made, but in the end they were left feeling happy about the work – and they have given the best referrals. So it does even out eventually.

 

[monkeypuzzle]

Great advice from all! I really like "touch the tree)" TREETX I love giving bids and walking around a persons yard inspecting.Become the yard! Be aware. Allways ask where underground pipes etc. are located. I watched a crane go into a septic tank three weeks ago. We were lucky, the operator was able to drive out and the homeowner had NO idea why it was under his dirt drive.


My way of" touching the trees" is this.
Growing up on a working nursery I learned my plants. Walking around a potential job site with a brown thumb(most are) gives me a chance to talk plants, landscapes, AND trees. Not everyone gives a rats a$$ but you learn the types that DIG it.
And around here not many of the treeguys are sporting a green thumb either.We all know the types. This extra bit of knowledge helps a lot I think.

You have to deal with people too in this bizz. If you see a University of Florida tag on their car ask if there son/daughter go there. Get inside, know/learn as much as you can about your customers. Within reason You get the idea.

Yea, this is a little off. So what, there is much to learn and this is only advice. All people are on different levels. Think of it this way.All your customers fit somewhere between..

Albert Einstein and...................................Mike Tyson.

I think the average a home-owner spends on Tree Work is about $500 a year. Does that sound right guys???? Seems like I read that, maybe a little less not sure. Oh well, happy trails.

 

[Dan Flinn]

Hi all! long time, no talk to. What a summer! It's taught me a lot about what you are going through, heartland.

I "cross examine" the bids I get in several ways. First, I do the man hour thing. I, too, go for about $45-55 per man hour. Then I look at what portion of the day it's going to take. Will it take half a day or 3/4 or a full day. I have in mind what I would like to make in sales per day and bid accordingly.

Lastly, I figure in the "summer" rate. I give a 15-20% discount if the client can wait til winter to do the work.

Needless to say, I still, at least once a week, walk away from a job thinking that I underbid.

Good luck,
Dan

 

[NickfromWI]

Originally posted by monkeypuzzle
...I think the average a home-owner spends on Tree Work is about $500 a year. Does that sound right guys???? ...

I don't know the numbers, but I think it would be more accurate to say that the average home owner that has tree work done spends..... Think about how many people there are out there that don't take care of their trees.

love
nick

 

[Dan F]

After having gone through a similiar situation as an employee (not an owner), and with a different type of company (landscaping), my advice is to know when to say enough is enough. We learned a hard lesson this year too. Cost a lot in lost work for *other* clients. Took a lawyer (on our part, not hers) to finally get it all settled. And it may not be settled yet, we haven't heard from her in over a month.... We hated to leave the job unfinished, but simply could not work for her any longer.

If at all possible, get an attorney to draw up a contract that is signed by both you and the homeowner. Somehow include a "way out" for yourself if the homeowner gets to be too demanding. The contract may scare some of the clients, but it's a safety net for you AND them, and they need to understand that.


Dan

 

[TREETX]

Originally posted by Dan F


If at all possible, get an attorney to draw up a contract that is signed by both you and the homeowner.

I say c-ya if I think I will need that much CYA. Not that hungy

 

[Dan F]

Problem is though is some people won't come off that way until you start working for them. That's when you will wish you had that contract. We never thought it was going to go that far with that particular client. But, like I said, we were dealing with a landscape (and lawn) install, not tree work.

It just takes one client like we had to leave a bad taste in your mouth that you can't ever get rid of!


Dan

 

[jblimbwalker]

Charge an hourly fee on the pruning and a set rate for removals, maybe? This is our standard practice and seems to work well.

 

[NickfromWI]

Originally posted by jblimbwalker
Charge an hourly fee on the pruning and a set rate for removals, maybe? This is our standard practice and seems to work well.

Is it common for people to charge a different rate if they are removing vs. pruning? I'd charge more for removal just to encourage people to keep their trees!

love
nick

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

If you have any fine print in your contracts, that is clauses that are printed on your form, have the leagal beagle look it over for usefulness.

Also have other arbo's look at it (maybe before the leagal councel)

Like the guy I met who had the "all debrise" clause changed to "all debrise generated by our work" after one client held payment till all the old pine needles were removed from the gutters.

 

[TREETX]

If the contacts hinges on the fine print, it is not worth the paper it is printed on. It may be worth the thousands in lawyer's fees to defend it though....

Nicky, my love, you are so cute sometimes....manhours are manhours. I don't give a rat's ash if they are removals, pruning, nosepicking, or as I spent they day.....at the University of Texas Chi-Omega sorroity house climbing big pecans near the pool picking out squirrel damage and reducing weight.

Love - Nate

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Some of it can be little CYA thast you pick up over the years, or maybe little expinations that you write every time eg-"Stump grinding debrise will not be hauled off site, but will be raked back into the pit. Removal and backfill are available at an hourly rate of $xx puls cost of any material involved"

Big lightning, time to shut down and read a book. Wish the rain would fall here

 

[Treeman14]

Originally posted by SilverBlue
Hey who would bet that Tim will get a call back in a few years from that customer seeking more work?

You mean when the watersprouts go CRAZY trying to compensate for all that thinning? I guess that's job security for some. Thin them out, suckers grow like the dickens, thin them out again, etc., etc., etc.