Hydraulic powered equipment

[harrygrey382]

OK so this isn't specifically about mills, but very related. In fact my idea came because me and mate were looking at on big old saw bench I'm thinking of resurrecting and he suggested hooking it up to the hydraulics on my truck.

One of my life goals (and I assume a number of people here) is to have a well equipped wood workshop, and that by definition includes at least a 24" planer thicknesser (36" would be better), big table saw, radial arm saw and more. Wouldn't say no to a full size engineering lathe and mill too.

These are always going to need big motors, and single phaser isn't up to it. In fact every interesting piece of machinery seems to be 3ph. I've never lived in a property with three phase, and this isn't commercial, just to make furniture for my family and close friends. Although i guess if I was set up business options may materialise. So renting a workshop is out. Besides I like to have it next to the house so I can just spend a spare half an hour as well as long stints.

The cost of running 3 phase in is eye watering. So that leaves a generator or converter. Converters seem to always be a compromise and aren't cheap anyway, both to buy and run. I've been watching generators on ebay/gumtree and haven't seen a decent one for less than about $5000, and even then it has issues. I've been on the look out for just the alternator (diesel motors are comparatively cheap/easy for me to find) but they're pretty elusive too.

I'm about to set up my truck with hydraulics for a hiab. I thought what if I run an extra set of remotes, and have a long pair of hoses and run these into the workshop. I'd park the truck next to the shed and have it idling while I was using the equpiment. Then fit and gear a hydraulic motor to each piece of equipment. From a quick look these are cheap/plentiful, come a huge range of power/size/speed and are generally immensely powerful. I'd just hook up the hose to the piece of I need at the time...

They're be a few eccentricities about it, but for powering bit equipment it seems like a pretty inexpensive power source all things considered.

Do I sound off the wall here?

 

[Mike Van]

Harry, just my 2 cents - As most large woodworking machines come with 3 phase motors, I'd be looking for a 3 phase generator with a diesel engine & forget all the rest. I put a Hiab on a truck last year, powered it with a 20 HP Kohler & 6 gpm pump. That setup will pick 7000 pounds, but it would probably be worthless for running a table saw or planer. There is such a trade off in hydraulic motors , as in high speed, low torque & vise versa. Trying to get the right combination would be a lot of trial & error - Just my opinion.

 

[Sawyer Rob]

A pu at fast idle running a hydraulic pump, isn't going to run much of a power tool. You NEED a lot of GPM to run anything like that, and all of the hydraulic "stuff" is going to be expensive...

A big genset will suck $3.50 per gallon fuel like there's no tomorrow! NOT something "I" would want to do...

I run a BIG drill press and my metal lathe with a rotary phase converter, works pretty well for what I do...

SR

 

[harrygrey382]

Harry, just my 2 cents - As most large woodworking machines come with 3 phase motors, I'd be looking for a 3 phase generator with a diesel engine & forget all the rest. I put a Hiab on a truck last year, powered it with a 20 HP Kohler & 6 gpm pump. That setup will pick 7000 pounds, but it would probably be worthless for running a table saw or planer. There is such a trade off in hydraulic motors , as in high speed, low torque & vise versa. Trying to get the right combination would be a lot of trial & error - Just my opinion.

Yes a gennie would be best but I've been watching them on ebay/gumtree and haven't seen a decent one for less than about $5000, and even then it has issues. I've been on the look out for just the alternator (diesel motors are comparatively cheap/easy for me to find) but they're pretty elusive too. My hiab will run off the pump on the PTO on my gearbox - pump is off a 20ton tipper and engine is 180HP so shouldn't be taxed too hard

A pu at fast idle running a hydraulic pump, isn't going to run much of a power tool. You NEED a lot of GPM to run anything like that, and all of the hydraulic "stuff" is going to be expensive...

A big genset will suck $3.50 per gallon fuel like there's no tomorrow! NOT something "I" would want to do...

I run a BIG drill press and my metal lathe with a rotary phase converter, works pretty well for what I do...

SR

Surely that's just a case of gearing the hydraulic pump, I think my pump's rated fairly high - I thought I remember my mate who have it to me saying 18000 GPM. Fast idle moves heaps with a truck or tractor. Motor will be cheap then all I need is pulleys, belts and hoses.

Problem with a RPC is to power something like an 8hp motor I'd need at least a 12hp one for the converter then a really whopping 1ph supply for it.

 

[Sawyer Rob]

18,000 ? I think you better check that out a bit more!! lol

I know a amish furniture worker that runs much of his equipment with hydraulics... Looks like quite a set up to me, runs the pump with a diesel motor ect... Nothing happens at an idle...but sounds like you have it all figured out already...

SR

 

[harrygrey382]

well yes my figure may be off... Not sure. Tried to check it just now but couldn't find specs for a hydraulic PTO pump on a tipper. I know they provide quite a bit, certainly a lot of flow. They move some serious weight, surely it can be converted to high rotational speed with power. But that was the point of this thread, bit of a sounding board. I'm not sure sure how feasible it is but right now I can't see why theoretically it wouldn't work.

Would be different from a hydraulic power pack too, is your amish bloke's set up with a small portable? Truck pumps must be geared differently a lot of stuff happens at idle, and red line is generally in the 2000rpm region

 

[chads]

I have a roto-phase 5hp cnc rotory phase converter (RPC)and it will run anything in the shop up to 25A 3ph . I picked it up on ebay for $200.
I run a 7.5 hp 3PH planer off of it. It is rated at 19 amps so I could most likely handle a 10 hp motor if I needed to.
CNC is a hard start so it takes more at startup, if you see any rpc rated that way it is a really good one otherwise just look at amp output for a good measure.
If its rated CNC you can usually start a motor unloaded one or two sizes up.
RPC will give you true 3 phase power.

A static phase converter will reduce the output of the motor by at least a 1/3 not a good idea in many cases but a much cheaper way to use a motor on single phase.
those are available for around $100 or even less to make one ($30) from misc parts. These might be ok for a drill press,jointer or bandsaw that does not need too much power. essentially this method delays one of the legs of the single phase power a bit by running it thru a few capacitors to to get the motor started and then just uses two legs of single phase power to run the motor instead of three so your output is derated pretty much.

A VFD is another way to do it but after about 2 or 3 HP they are pretty pricy f you want to run big stuff.
VFD's are cheap if they have 3ph input you really need to make sure they are single phase compatible if your going to buy one.
A 1 hp VFD would be in the $120-180 a 5hp vfd with single phase input would most likely run $1000 not sure but pricy.


If I run short on power all I need to do is run a 5 or even 10 hp 3ph motor(idler) to up my power even more once its turning it becomes an additional RPC.
I f your somewhat handy you can make a rpc out of a used 3ph motor fairly cheap ($ 80-150) Or just buy the kit and supply your own motor.
It's not real hard and will easily handle a small shop.

If you want you can even take a old 10 hp 3 Ph motor and just wrap a rope around a pulley and pull start it like a lawn mower flip the switch of single phase power to two of the 3 legs and the wild leg (3rd leg) will be generated so you can power whatever tools you need.

Also the lower the rpm idler motor the better they are quieter and easier to start.

If you go the hydraulic route you would need some serious power with a huge pump I would steer clear of that.
I would say you could easily have a really nice RPC for the price of just a big hyd pump alone.

Practical machinist has a lot of details on it and how to diagrams if you can read a electrical diagram it is pretty easy if not its fairly cheap to buy a kit.
I use about 40 amps on single phase to power 25 amps on three phase so you should have about 100 amps to your shop to make it work well if you want to power a dust collector while your working.

Some guys will run there RPC off the Dryer outlet or welder outlet and just use a cord to the machine they are using.

If you have any questions I can help you figure out what you need.

Also I would think it would be much cheaper to buy single phase motors to replace the three phase ones rather than convert over to hydraulic drive.

Chad

 

[kimosawboy]

I read this thread a few days ago and meant to throw my 2cents in.
It seems redundant now that Chad has made all the points I was going to and more.
Forget the hydraulics!!!!
G Vavra

 

[mobile_bob]

just get a rotary converter setup to power the largest motor load in your shop, once it is started leave it running as an idler and you will then likely be able to run anything else at the same time in the shop,, or alternatively you can run any single load anytime.

iirc many machinists not having 3 phase power do this without issues.

i have seen rotary converters made out of a single large 3 phase motor, and a bit of switch gear (contactor/relays) wherein you provide 240 single phase to two leads of the motor and the motor generates the third leg of the 3phase. of course it is not self starting, but many guys figure out all sorts of alternative starting schemes, from fractional hp pony motors, to briggs and stratton recoil starters, to simply installing a pulley that they can kick start with their boot.

fwiw
bob g

* i see chad's and maybe others posted the same info earlier, sorry if this is repetitive.

 

[harrygrey382]

Thanks Chads, great round up of 3ph converter options. Still thinking about a homemade RPC just not sure I'll stumble on a suitable large enough motor for the conversion. I keep my eyes open though. That's what's stopped me, but then as I haven't even got the machinery yet I'm still planning... And as I already have the pump set up on my truck I was thinking it could be an option. Another factor against it though is my pump is only 21 GPM, motors I've been looking at need 66 GPM. Bit of a show stopper right there

Problem with converting to single phase is a lot of the stuff I'm interested in is too big - say a 24" thicknesser, generally about 8hp. Correct me if I'm wrong but no single phase motor is up to that.

 

[chads]

Single phase motors go up to 10 hp so it is just a matter of finding one at a fair price.

Three phase motors are easy to come by the scrap yards are full of them. I got 3 7.5 hp motors off ebay from the same seller for $1 ,$2, $26.
The last being the one I really wanted but the first two were up first and at a price I couldn't turn down.
I used it for my 20" planer as the 5 hp was under powered.
Once you start poking around and get the word out there seem to be plenty available.
Often the bigger the cheaper 7.5 10 15 and 20 hp are really common.
I think our scrap yard buys for .20 a lb and sells for .40 a lb.
Just be sure they are rated for 220-240v. 480v only and up won't work too easy.


Chad

 

[BobL]

A 5hp vfd with single phase input would most likely run $1000 not sure but pricy.

I have a 5HP 3P compressor running off a 5HP single 240V to 3 phase 240V VFD.
The 5HP VFD cost !$215? Runs like a charm.

There are also 5 other machines ranging from 3/4 to 3HP run of single to 3 phase VFDs in my shop.
Bench grinder. linisher, wood and metal lathes and a drill press
4 of the motors are 240/415V ∆/Y 3P motors and 2 motors were 415V Y only and I modified them to ∆.
I have modified about a dozen other 414V Y motors up to 4HP to run on 240V 3P

Even if I had 3 Phase in my shop I would still run them using VFDs because of the speed and acceleration/deceleration control that VFD provides.

This is my latest - a 3/4HP grinder that I will be fitting a CBN wheel to.
In the Photo the grinder is on a large turntable that allows me to rotate the grinder of interest to the from and the grinder can also b rotated through 180º so the wheel is side on the


I also built a HP measuring apparatus (de Prony Brake) that measures the mechanical HP output of motors as a function of motor speed.
(see picture below)
A back torque is applied to a a custom made brake drum attached to the motor being tested using bicycle hand brake connected to a spring steel band that wraps around the drum.
One end of the steel strap is fixed to a digital force meter and the is attached to another force meter and then onto the handbrake
The difference between the two force meter readings times the radius of the drum give the motor torque.
Combine that with the RPM as recorded by a laser tacho and the give the HP

The trick is recording the two force meters and the RPMs simultaneously which I do by using a camera on a tripod.
I also simultaneously record input and output currents and voltages so that I can determine motor efficiency
I basically squeeze the brake a touch and then fire the camera, squeeze some more and click away repeatedly until the motor starts to stall.
This is used to check the output of motors, especially those that I modify.

 

[poleframer]

I use hydraulic power in my shop. I'm off grid in oregon, and since I needed to run an engine occasionally for shop power I decided to plumb the shop to a double pump on a 12 hp kubota diesel engine. It is easy on fuel,maybe around a quart an hour full throttle, and I dont run it all the time, just when I need my 30 inch bandsaw, 15x60 lathe, milling machine, power hammer, 60 ton forging press, 25 ton shop press, iron twister, or whatever else I want to plug into it.
I rarely buy hydraulic components new, other than hoses, tubing, and fittings.
Flow control valves give me variable speed, and it's fairly easy to find hydraulic motors to size for the application. I set up a tandem pump to further adjust my flow, each section has an adjustable relief valve inline, so I can run less flow at higher psi by dumping one or the other section, or run both together for around 12-15 gpm max flow, tho I often just adjust the engine rpm, I can work at the lathe for hours with the engine just idling.
At the main valve bank central in the shop is a switch for the electric clutch on the hyd pump, so I can kill the flow easily within a few steps of any tool I'm running.