I'm from the State and I'm here to help you

[msjanket]

Laws ordering low kickback chains for saws under 62 cc are partly another way for the guvvermint to get into your shorts and make your life more complicated. Who is behind these laws? Well meaning politicians who never used a saw or DEP officials who pontificate from on-high seeking promotions from higher-ups for their creativity and altruism?

 

[ericjeeper]

Personally I have no issues with manufacturers selling

with high amounts of saftey features. I figure if you can buy a chiansaw and figure out it would cut better with a different chain setup.Then You can chagne it. But seriously think about how many old chainsaws you see 10 years old and people have bought 3-5 new chains for it over the years, and they are all saftey type chains.
It is kind of like the sign on the decl of your new lawnmower.Saying something to the effect of."Do not put hands under this deck" Yet how many people do it anyhow?
The guberment is our friend.. Sumbuddy has to be there to remind us that as human beings we do stupid sh!t at times.
Safety chains are like seatbelts. You do not have to use em.

 

[msjanket]

Gubermint is your friend, not mine

20% of the cost of a stepladder is to pay for liability insurance, warning stickers, etc. How much is enough? Are guns labeled, "don't stick yer head in front of the barrel and pull the trigger"? Gubermint is an excessive presence in our lives. If you say gubermint is our friend, I guess it means you accept all these buffoon politicians and other pilot fish hacks, too. Tsk, tsk.
Let's have 'em slap warning labels all over the saw, bar, chain boxes, etc. Makes for a better world fur you and me...yeah, right.

 

[Jim Mesthene]

Well meaning politicians who never used a saw or DEP officials ....

....Or emergency room doctors?
If you know what you're doing, you'll get a real chain. If you don't, you're probably better off with the safety chain.

A friend of mine, with even less saw experience than I have, will drop start his saw on a ladder (with no PPE whatsoever), then lean out as far as he can reach, and cut one-handed. He says he's watched loggers and that's how they do it. He's had his Stihl for years, I still haven't told him he's got safety chain on it.

 

[tek9tim]

Safety chains are like seatbelts. You do not have to use em.

Unless you live in Washington.

So, think of this from the saw manufacturer's point of view. Who typically has a problem with injuring themselves from kickback? People not trained in prevention of kickback. What kind of saws do these people typically use? Small displacement homeowner saws. How do you protect these people from suing you because they not only don't know how to deal with kickback, they're running non-safety chain? Put it into the manufacturer's specifications that low kickback chain and bars must be used on saws under 62ccs. If they decide to put full chisel full skip on their 025 and snub the nose into a log, that's their own fault for putting the chain on. They were advised otherwise. Releases liability from the company. I tell you what, if I worked in risk managment at Stihl, I would never let that slip out of policy. Are you kidding me? And no, I don't run safety chain on my small saw, but I also know the consequences. And so do most people on this site. But, the guys like Jim mentioned have no idea about kickback, and likely could end up with a saw sticking out of their forehead if they ever ran full chisel.

Haha, btw I've never seen a logger packing around a ladder great example of a guy that's not tuned into saw use.

 

[Haywire Haywood]

Safety chains are like seat belts. You do not have to use'em.

Unless you live in Washington.

Or Kentucky. They can now pull you over just for a seatbelt violation. Used to be that it was an add on when they got you for something worth while like speeding or running a stop light.

I don't have a problem with them requiring that small saws be sold with safety chain. I would have a problem if they banned the use of non-safety altogether. This might be a stepping stone to harsher legislation like... no sales of non-safety chain to anyone who isn't a professional with a specific gov't approved safety course and an arborist or logging business license.

Ian

 

[livewire]

Laws ordering low kickback chains for saws under 62 cc are partly another way for the guvvermint to get into your shorts and make your life more complicated. Who is behind these laws? Well meaning politicians who never used a saw or DEP officials who pontificate from on-high seeking promotions from higher-ups for their creativity and altruism?

I just want to know what "pontificate" means...You've got some elaborate thesaurus, msjanket!

 

[Lakeside53]

Pontification is a common method of "communication" on AS

 

[livewire]

Pontification is a common method of "communication" on AS

LOL...Thanks Andy, I had to open the dictionary for that one...

 

[computeruser]

I don't have a problem with them requiring that small saws be sold with safety chain, I would have a problem if they banned the use of non-safety altogether. This might be a stepping stone to harsher legislation like... no sales of non-safety chain to anyone who isn't a professional with a specific gov't approved safety course and an arborist or logging business license.

Ian

Yup.

My greater concern would be the imposition of a licensing system (like the UK for top handle saws). Passive, anonymous restrictions that can be easily worked around are far less offensive than having to ask the Massa for permission to do something.

The world would be a much better place if there were fewer regulations, fewer lawsuits over innane product liability issues, and whatnot. Sure, medicines that don't do what they say they'll do and end up harming folks, that's one thing - it is impossible for the average person to know what the drugs are doing and they rely on their physicians and the drug companies to responsibly market their products. But for physical objects, the stuff that good ol' common sense can protect you from - using lawnmowers as hedge trimmers, irresponsible powertool use, using the hair dryer in the bathtub, spilling coffee in your lap, etc. - this crap is NOT the proper subject of litigation.

Here's the thing, folks: if stuff like this bothers you, don't just sit there and type about it on AS, talk about it out in the "real" world. Tell your friends, write your senators and congressmen, and make sure that you keep this in mind if/when you sit on a jury in a civil case where product liability issues come up. The logic in favor of the "leave us alone to make our own choices" exists and is actually pretty damned strong. It just gets drowned out by the "protect people (and especially the children!) from themselves" crowd.

**This post was brought to you by a lawyer who happens to believe in people being personally responsible for the choices that they make.**

 

[tek9tim]

I agree with computeruser there. I guess the point I was getting at earlier is that I say forget what the government says, I think it's a good way for manufacturers to protect themselves from lawsuit happy morons. One thing I have to say, is that before I knew much about different types of chain (I think that must have been back in junior high school) I had no idea that safety chain existed, and had no idea that chisel was more dangerous. It's not common sense. Definitely something you have to learn. Granted, I did know plenty about kickback avoidance, which makes not knowing about the chain more trivial.

I agree, it would be flat stupid for there to be additional legislature in place regarding this.

 

[Timberhauler]

I am in agreement with Bill Engvall...Certain people oughta be made to wear "stupid signs"...That way when they are about to purchase something that could possibly endanger themselves,the retailer would have the right to refuse the sale...People like that are why the regulations are getting they way they are.
My liability and workers comp. insurance for my business is astronomically expensive....And the rates are based on EVERYONE in the tree business,this includes uncertified people attempting jobs over their heads and getting hurt or destroying property.This also includes homeowners that injure themselves with a chainsaw,or fall out of trees they are trying to cut with absolutely no safety equipment,or trying to climb trees with a ladder....It's bassed on ALL emergency room stats that include chainsaw or other injuries related to the profession.....Which in the end it is a big kick in the butt to the small business owner like me.If they were to only include injuries by certified and insured proffesionals in the business,then our rates would be lower.I am not sure how this is from state to state,but because of the way it's set up here,it's bassed on income.The more money you make,the more your insurance is,so not only are you paying for everyone else's mistakes,you have these rediculous rates to pay that increase as your business grows.
I'm not putting down anyone here that is not a professional.I'm just consatntly pissed at how this insurance system works in our state....To mention,if you do have an accident,say a tree or a big top goes the wrong way and cuts a house in half,I have a 2 million dollar liability limit which should fix just about anything I could destroy,so the damage would be covered,but 2 million is really all I can afford and if you happen to hurt or kill someone during this accident,then you're probably gonna get sued,making 2 million dollars seem like pocket change..The best possible scenario would be,tear something up,no injuries,the insurance company fixes the damage..Then guess what...Even though you've been paying out the nose all those years without one single claim,the insurance company will drop you,and it will be nearly impossible to find another agent that will write you..If you find one,it's probably gonna be too expensive to afford.......The whole system is screwed...From dumb ass government regulations,down to the way insurance companies work,making us pay for everyone else's mistakes..Just to note...I could care less who wants and who is using "real" saw chain.Anyone who owns the saw oughta have the right to pick which chain they want it to come with....I thought that's what the liability disclaimers all over a brand new saw were for??? ...I'm not sure how it is anywhere else,but when I buy a new saw,my dealer knows to put single drag chain on it,or I don't take it out of the showroom.

 

[Big feller]

Some great points raised here. I don't have a problem with the well intentioned concept that a certificate of competence is required over here to buy a new top handled saw. What is unfortunate is the red tape that goes with it makes it very difficult for small companies to compete with the big boys. My company has felt the need to put me through a working at heights course, a safe driving course, a course about protecting your hearing and a stress evaluation. All this in the space of a couple of years. How many of you guys employing less than ten people could afford that sort of thing?

What is sad is that the legislation probably does very little. I can't imagine many folks setting out using a top handled saw on their own for the first time would even think of buying one new. Plenty of MS 190, 200 etc. on sale on Ebay. My first gas saw was a Mac 130 that I was given as a fixer-upper. It never occurred to me that it might be more dangerous because of the position of the handle.

Hire stores in the UK have pretty much stopped renting out gas saws (although strangely they think electric saws are safer). If you can't afford to buy new and you can't hire - back to local sales or Ebay. This removes any chance of talking to a responsible person who might spot that you are blissfully ignorant of the trouble you are lining yourself up for and offer a few tentative words of advice. Not an easy one to legislate.

 

[mattinky]

Or Kentucky. They can now pull you over just for a seatbelt violation. Used to be that it was an add on when they got you for something worth while like speeding or running a stop light.
Ian

Something else Kentucky does that steams me to NO END is their "roadblocks" to see if I'm drunk or not. I don't drink & drive and I should'nt be hassled over it. Several states have stopped doing this because it violates your civil rights. If my driving is eratic pull me over, if it's not leave me alone. Big brother needs to quit trying to protect us from ourselves.
Matt

 

[A100HVA]

i think governor's should stay in capital and saftey chains should be used to keep'em there:bang:
(rpm limiters)

 

[Timberhauler]

Something else Kentucky does that steams me to NO END is their "roadblocks" to see if I'm drunk or not. I don't drink & drive and I should'nt be hassled over it. Several states have stopped doing this because it violates your civil rights. If my driving is eratic pull me over, if it's not leave me alone. Big brother needs to quit trying to protect us from ourselves.
Matt

We've lost family to drunk drivers,to mention it was a seventeen year old boy who was the victim...It will change your outlook tremendously once something like this happens.........I wouldn't have a problem with a DUI checkpoint,but here is what I would have a problem with,and my wife was a traffic officer for two years,so this is very accurate..
If you run into a DUI check point,there was likely another unmarked car a half mile back clocking your speed,and if you were going more that 5 over the speed limit,then you're getting an unnecessary speeding ticket,and they are gonna find every little thing they can to fine you for,even if you're not drunk.
Being that my wife is a cop,I kind of have to fall on both sides sometimes.Like any job there are things she sometimes has to do that even she doesn't agree with...I say that unless there is some escaped prisoner in the area,or they are looking for someone dangerous,then leave us the hell alone..If they wanna pick up more DUI's,then hang out near the parking lots of some of the night clubs in the area,and quit making people who are just trying to get from point A to point B suffer...If there must be a DUI checkpoint,then pull through,blow into a tube,and you're done.If you're sober,keep going.Thats the way it should work.