Installing a new heating system from scratch, OWB vs wood furnace?

[verticaltrx]

My wife and I are getting ready to install an all new heat system in our 1920's farmhouse, here's a little background:

The house is a 2-story farmhouse with full basement, 2000sf heated space, and was originally heated with 8(!) tiny wood and/or coal stoves. It was later converted to a couple large oil stoves. There is no house wrap on it, the walls are insulated with sawdust, no insulation in the basement or attic. There has never been central heat so there is no duct work of any kind. There are currently two 275 gallon oil tanks with the house, one of them is full (both in good shape). Our winters here in mountains of southwest VA aren't terrible, but we get our fair share of snow, wind, and it can get down to -10F. I have an unlimited supply of wood and all the equipment to handle it.

In our decision, we are trying to use the least amount of outside energy possible (electric and fuel) as we'd like to be fairly self-sufficient and maybe off the grid someday. With all this in mind we have come up with two main options for heat:

1. Install a traditional forced air oil furnace along with an indoor wood furnace. There is a chimney into the basement and ground level access so it'd be easy to get wood in. I could add a heating coil to the wood furnace for domestic hot water. The wood furnace would be used 90% of the time for heat with oil only as a backup.

2. Outdoor wood boiler with oil burner backup, either radiant floor heat or baseboard heat. There is a wood shed 50' down-wind from the house. This setup could also maybe heat our future shop and milk house if sized right.

Obviously there are pros/cons to both. We'd like to not spend a fortune on this setup, but also want to do it right (even if it's in stages). I'm having a couple heating and air contractors come for estimates who do both traditional furnace setups and OWB's. I also have a fair amount of HVAC and plumbing experience myself so I could do some/all of the work.

Just looking for everyone's thoughts on the matter, thanks in advance.

 

[OH_Varmntr]

We'd like to not spend a fortune on this setup, but also want to do it right (even if it's in stages).

I went from an indoor wood furnace to a Central Boiler 6048 OWB (installed it 100% myself). The peace of mind you get from knowing your house won't catch fire while you're not home is totally worth the investment. OWB gets my vote.

That said, if you're willing to install a system in stages, then the first stage of EITHER option is to insulate your home! All the wood burners in the world won't help if the heat is going right outside. You should definitely consider investing money in insulation. :msp_wink:

 

[psuiewalsh]

If you have hot water baseboard I would look at an outdoor or indoor boiler. I have nat gas fired baseboard and heat with a fireplace insert. I have to run fans to distribute the heat. Tying into the existing water system would have been a better choice but outdoor boilers are not allowed here and I could not swing the cost of an indoor unit.

 

[verticaltrx]

Thanks for the quick responses.

As for the insulation, the basement and attic will get insulated ASAP. The walls will have to wait a year or two until we redo the exterior of the house. It'll get fiberglass insulation, house wrap and hardiboard siding at that point.


The main things I'm looking at for this system is efficiency, ease of use, and cost. Having a fire in the house or a mess in the house isn't on my list of worries. As far as efficiency goes, the total amount of wood burned in a season and how much electricity it takes to run the system are my two biggest concerns. I'm looking at the electrical standpoint for having heat when the power is out (or off the grid) and what that would entail.

Keep the info coming:msp_thumbup:

 

[stihly dan]

Boiler would be the way to go. In your case. Unless you want ac as well. They also make indoor gasification boilers, if you want to save on the install. Start insulating the attic now. Thats an order.

 

[Arbonaut]

Get inside boiler and forget about the insulation. I been OWB for the last ten years. Nothing wrong with it however the indoor radiation is better, especially as you said you have no issue there. Do it.

 

[OH_Varmntr]

My OWB is much easier to use than my indoor wood furnace. Scrape the walls and load it half full once every 24 hours. Shovel ash every week or so. Efficiency? In my case, my OWB is much more efficient than my el-cheapo Volgezang add on wood furnace. 5 hour burn times, lots and lots of wood, constantly having to re-light the fire when I come home because it went out while I was at work, etc...it was bad.

Price? My Central Boiler 6048 cost me right at $12,000. That was the unit ($8500), 2 air handler cabinets with blowers and 100k btu heat exchangers (about $800 each), a domestic hot water heat exchanger kit, fittings, pump, and 80' of ThermoPEX underground pipe ($11.45/ft). I also picked it up and set it on the concrete block foundation myself, and dug the trench by hand.

With extra plumbing fittings; 200' of PEX pipe; 80' of nonmetallic conduit; 100' of 12/2 Romex, 15AMP breaker, and Seal-Tite to run power to the unit, add an extra $450 onto that.

Throw another $100 into the mix for other odds and ends I may have forgotten about and I've invested atleast $12,550 into my setup.

In my case, my house has no ductwork, so I now have to run ductwork to redirect the hot air coming from my air handlers. Not sure how much that will cost, yet.

 

[zogger]

Short answer

Absolute cheapest basement wood furnace you can get by with for now.

Then, insulate like crazy, pick a section at a time and do it right.


Longer


Right now you are thinking cart before the horse...

Put the bulk of the money and effort now into anything that heats and get to insulating, deep, thick, and thorough, and then you'll find out what your needs really are once the house is up to 21st century engineering reality standards, and you can redo the heating requirements then. You'll be surprised, when you think back what you thought you needed.. Chances are really high you will be able to get by with a lot less heating infrastructure and fuel than you may think.

The first rule in the alternate energy community is..drop demand! That's the cheapest longest range solution, whether getting energy efficient appliances, altering how you do electrical demand things, such as heavy loads during the middle of the day, etc. Superinsulation *works* (that's the term to research), pay for it once, lasts forever. If you are serious about being able to go off grid.

Old big leaky house like that, you are gonna burn ten times what you really have to without addressing the actual reality of things. Ten. Maybe more, who knows. That also means a much more expensive big wood eating dragon setup, that will require feeding and maintainance forever. Why do that, starting from scratch, especially with what you know is a complete full blast energy hog house? Drop demand first. Failure to drop demand first is like..analogy here... driving down the road with a big freaking leak in the gas tank. The solution is not to get a bigger gas tank and buy more gas! "hey guys, can't hardly make it to work on a tank, got a 1/2 inch hole/leak in the tank, should I go to twin 20 gallon poly tanks with the half inch holes, or a 40 gallon steel tank with the hole, or......"

You want to cut a lot of wood in the meantime, swell, cut extra, sell it, put all that loot, plus whatever else ya got for the project, towards all the various insulation things you need, starting with an actual plan o the house. You have walls, windows, doors, etc. Heat flows to cold and heated air rises, about all you need to know to get going. Don't even think about doing it all at once, just one step/section at a time. One exterior wall, one window, one door, more in the attic, just go around and figure most and easiest gains first according to what you are staring at, and protecting the water pipes should also be the highest consideration.

For now, cheapest wood furnace you can get going in the basement, and like floor registers to spread the heat. Make it like a three-five year plan, then see how much demand is left, then go about getting a modern advanced burning system.

Bwa! I know you didn't want to hear that *at all*, but I hope my analogy makes sense.

 

[Butch(OH)]

We have been using an OWB for 6 years and I love it, if I had no choice but to go back to burning inside I would quit burning wood. That being said I always caution those that have interest in an OWB about their commitment to burning wood. Anyone who has not burned wood I tell them NOT to get and OWB until they have burned wood for at least two years, why? Damn few realize the work they are about to get into and the commitment they are making. With an OWB, its not for part timers who like a warm fire now and then or those who want to reduce the heat bill in the coldest months. If cutting wood is nothing but a chore forget it! BUT If you like being in the woods, like to run the saws and split, have the sources of wood, dont mind staying home to feed it then an OWB shines.

 

[brenndatomu]

Zogger makes an excellent argument, you can do a TON of work on the house for the cash a complete OWB system is gonna set ya back! And it pays you back forever.

I've heard tale of people heating something like a 3000-3500 sq. ft. house, that was superinsulated, with 1 load of wood per day in a small wood stove.

 

[H-Ranch]

As Butch says above having an OWB is kind of an "all in" proposition - you have to WANT to do it. It may be similar for a wood furnace but I've never owned one so I can't say. I do love my OWB though.

To be off the grid I'm not sure either choice of furnace or OWB will be easy. There are battery or alternative options, but either will require electricity.

 

[LegDeLimber]

No knowledge to give about the heater, but let me advocate for insulation.

When my parents built this house in 1958/59, fuel oil must of been cheap as water.
Central, oil fired furnace, no AC, bout 1100 sq ft.
Not one bit of insulation, brick ext & plaster skimmed int walls.
Will be royal B#### to ever retrofit with insulation.
Oh, and those damn crank out aluminum framed windows
lovely heat transfer,
just always in the wrong direction for whichever season though.

Anyway, it eventually got a few inches of attic fluff blown in and made a small diff.
The big change came, last year, with getting the attic up to a good 12"+
and the floor done (have a high crawlspace).
last winter I stayed cozy off of the heat from a dehumidifier and a couple of electric portable heaters and used no oil.
But it was pretty mild winter here and I am seriously hot natured and like a house at around 60 deg.

Just sayin' don't be like my parents and "try to save some money"
by forgoing or skimping on the insulation!!

p.s. I'd wager that they payed the cost of that insulation,
about every 6~7 years in extra heating and cooling costs.

 

[dingeryote]

Zogger nailed it.

Get the place sealed up and insulated first, and do it right.
Any which way ya go in the end, will need to be fed a heck of a lot more wood than is sane, untill you insulate.
The difference is huge! Not just winter, but in the summer as well.

You mentioned heating the Milk house...
Would that be an active Milk house used for Dairy production?
If so, the answer should be obvious. The FARM needs an OWB, and take advantage of any and all renewable energy incentives and cost shares offered.

The radiant heat option with the OWB is the way I would go, if somebody invents a time machine.
Like a doofus I never even considered it when we built this house.
Natural slate, and Marble tile floors were already planned, but dangit...I was focused on too much other stuff, and never considered a boiler.
Ya get whole house heat that is even, and no noise.
If you're tearing out the floors and revamping the place anyway, consider it real hard.

A conventional oil/propane furnace is going to be needed for AC, and as a back up any way ya go, and combining the Radiant with the coil in the furnace allows for quick warm ups when needed, and the ability to just run one or the other as desired.

Insulate that puppy!!

Stay safe!
Dingeryote

 

[Como]

I am going to assume that you do not need air con.

I had a similar sort of situation and went with a gassifying wood boiler system using radiators and a back up gas boiler. They run on electricity so if supply is an issue you need back up or wood stoves.

Underfloor pex system would have been nice but not practical. Probably the same for you.

I also have experience with a very well insulated house and lots of passive solar which has an electric baseboard system which never comes on as the single stove and fan keeps it tosty.

There will be a point of no return on what you can do, the cheap buys start with the loft and draft proofing. Windows on the other hand are very expensive for the pay back unles you need to change them anyway.

 

[Jules083]

Your farmhouse sounds very similar to the one I just moved out of. Mine is in terrible shape and needed a ton of work, I actually built a new house and am tearing the old one down in the spring.

Anyways to make it through the last few years I installed an indoor wood furnace. I'm not a big fan of the outdoor boilers, a lot of guys seem to like them. I have an energy king furnace, I can get 8 or 10 hour burns pretty easily and it cranks out good heat.

The first thing I did for insulation was duct tape and foam 4x8 sheets of 2" thick panels. I duct taped the windows the best I could and blocked off the upstairs with the panels. Obviously for you this would be a temporary fix, but before I blocked the upstairs off it was nearly impossible to heat the house. I remember being a kid when my uncle slept up there, it would be 50 degrees at best with the oil furnace set on 80.

The plastic over the windows didn't work for me, they actually blew off on a windy day a few times.

I learned from spending a few years in there that insulation is great and I would have loved to have some. However, sealing air leaks should be first priority, even if only to get through this winter. I had a few places that were sealed off with old burlap sacks jammed in, that didn't work very well.

Be careful about asbestos. I was a certified abatement worker for a few years, but my certs have expired. If you think you may have some pm me and I can go into detail there on how to safely deal with it.

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk 2

 

[Marc]

Well, you may need to catch your breath after looking at the cost, but I'd be thinking hard about an indoor "gasifier" boiler. With bulk water heat storage. If you can handle some DIY, than you can do the system a fair bit less costly. The Boiler Room over @ ********** has some knowledgable people on the matter.

Someday I may have such a system. Still working it out though. My farmhouse is a bit older and a bit bigger than yours.

 

[verticaltrx]

The points about insulation are well noted, I'll get started on the attic, basement, around windows and doors ASAP. But the job of pulling off a layer of vinyl siding, wood siding, then removing all the sawdust to properly insulate the walls will have to wait till spring/summer.


Currently our only heat source is a Fisher wood stove that heats the living room, kitchen, and bathroom. (we've been sleeping in the living room while remodeling the rest of the house). I like the idea of a cheap wood furnace for now, maybe run some temporary flex duct work and see how it works while we get the rest of the system together. I could probably get a wood furnace, a little duct work and a new chimney liner in for $3K or so.

If we ultimately decide to go with a wood boiler of some sort (indoor or outdoor), what is truly the best way to transfer heat into a home? Since we are starting from scratch, we could do radiant floor heat, radiators, baseboard heaters, or tie it into a central air system. The access for downstairs is easy as the basement is wide open, and upstairs we'll be pulling all the floor up anyways so access shouldn't be a problem there either.

As for the shop and milk house, it may or may not be practical to tie them into a OWB serving the house. They are about 200' away from where I would put the boiler and I'm not sure if it would work well to pump the water that far. I don't really want a separate boiler down there though as it is upwind from the house (and we are in a small valley).

I should also note, my Father has a wood boiler and he is pretty happy with it. His is a 1000gal Hicks Waterstove, which is in a 25x25 building near his house. Hicks WaterStoves "Index" He heats their 6000sf house with about 8-10 pickup loads of wood per year. He's using radiant floor heat and the system is tied into hot water solar panels on the roof and two gas water heaters. Overall I think it's a good system, but with the addition of the solar panels, two water heaters and multiple heating zones its pretty complicated(which I'd like to avoid.)

 

[Fyrebug]

+1 on insulation

OWB especially with radiant floor heating is a great way to go. Con is the money involved and time installing. But long term it's a great solution. Coming from a wood & combo forced air guy that's saying much.

You want to get yourself an high efficiency OWB and follow the same rules as burning wood in an EPA wood stove. That is cured wood (below 20% humidity) and split. The downside with OWB and such a large burn chamber users soon get lazy and the temptation is to cram it with big and/or wet logs, garbage, tires, recently deceased mother in law etc... therefore losing all the advantage of high efficiency not to mention smoking out the neighbourhood.

If you are interested in an High Efficiency EPA rated wood furnace you can click on my signature link and look for the Max Caddy. No smoke, no creosote, 85% efficient and burn time up to 12 hours. You can kit it as a wood/electric/oil for a one furnace solution.

Let us know if you have any questions.

 

[brenndatomu]

+1 on insulation

OWB especially with radiant floor heating is a great way to go. Con is the money involved and time installing. But long term it's a great solution. Coming from a wood & combo forced air guy that's saying much.

You want to get yourself an high efficiency OWB and follow the same rules as burning wood in an EPA wood stove. That is cured wood (below 20% humidity) and split. The downside with OWB and such a large burn chamber users soon get lazy and the temptation is to cram it with big and/or wet logs, garbage, tires, recently deceased mother in law etc... therefore losing all the advantage of high efficiency not to mention smoking out the neighbourhood.

If you are interested in an High Efficiency EPA rated wood furnace you can click on my signature link and look for the Max Caddy. No smoke, no creosote, 85% efficient and burn time up to 12 hours. You can kit it as a wood/electric/oil for a one furnace solution.

Let us know if you have any questions.

Funerals gettin pricey up in canukland too I see! :msp_laugh::msp_laugh::msp_laugh: BTW...I've heard that MIL same as wood, the smoking is lots less if well seasoned. :hmm3grin2orange: Sorry, couln't resist. Back to the regularly scheduled program...

 

[padgett152]

I've seen personally all of the recommendations here in action. I had the same options myself. I went with the Fire Chief 700 indoor furnace because I had the class A chimney in place from a wood stove I replaced. I was able to tie it into my duct work. I had originally thought of dumping the air into the basement and cuttin 3-4 nice sized grates, allowing the hot air to use gravity. I personally like tending to the unit (maybe I'm crazy). There's just something satisfying knowing that all the hard work and sweat this summer (cutting firewood) is paying off. My propane bill is $ 0.00 so that's a plus too. You have a decision to make and the folks here will be very helpful in that decision process. Don't be afraid to ask questions, the knowledge on this site is A+. Good luck !!:msp_thumbup: