interesting... but will this work?

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forestryworks

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http://www.oregonlive.com/printer/printer.ssf?/base/news/1213932332307280.xml&coll=7&thispage=2

Wyden's logging plan could please environmentalists, industry
The Senator's proposal for Oregon would protect old-growth stands while allowing sustainable cutting

Friday, June 20, 2008
MICHAEL MILSTEIN
The Oregonian

With millions of acres of overgrown Oregon forests at desperate risk of wildfires, Sen. Ron Wyden, D-Ore., Thursday advanced an outline of legislation aimed at permanently protecting old-growth trees while also promoting sustainable logging.

That combination has long been an elusive Holy Grail of public-land forestry in the Northwest. Intense old-growth logging through the 1980s led to a public and legal backlash that brought cutting to a near-standstill. Logging levels remain depressed, with projects often stymied by lawsuits. Many sawmills that depend on federal timber have shut down and others are on the brink.

Without sawmills it becomes increasingly difficult to thin overgrown and flammable forests, even when environmental groups often opposed to logging agree something needs to be done.

Wyden's proposal calls on local collaborative groups to design forest projects that include logging, with a goal of reducing wildfire risk and breaking up dense tree plantations. If they meet certain standards, the projects would be exempt from environmental reviews and appeals that often delay forest work.

Although the strategy is not yet in the form of a bill, it has support from two top forest scientists and tentative interest from environmental groups and the timber industry. But Rep. Peter DeFazio, D-Ore., who has also proposed legislation breaking the forest gridlock, warned that it's easier said than done.

Even bills that seem to have broad public support can be scuttled by extreme views from either the logging or environmental community, especially in Oregon, DeFazio said Thursday.

"We have the most entrenched and polarized environmental and industry groups in Oregon," DeFazio said. "I'm happy to have Ron join me in the arena here. I get tired of ducking all the bricks, and now half of them will be aimed at him."

Although Wyden's proposal is unlikely to make it through Congress in a busy election year, he described it in the Senate Thursday as laying groundwork for a new approach to Oregon forests when a new president takes office. His proposal applies only to Oregon, but his staff said it could be expanded to include other states too.

Key elements of Wyden's plan:

No logging of trees older than 120 years in damp forests common to the west side of the Cascade Range, and no cutting of trees more than 150 years old in drier eastside forests. Also, no clear-cutting.

Federal land agencies would be directed to work on projects that restore forest health, reduce fire risk, protect sensitive lands and promote sustainable logging across large areas of landscape.

Each national forest and U.S. Bureau of Land Management district must develop a large scale forest restoration project up to 25,000 acres using a local collaborative group.

Independent federal observers would monitor logging to be sure no old-growth trees are cut, and any areas violating the rules would lose their authority for such projects.

Tax credits would be available for environmentally sensitive logging equipment and sawmills designed to cut smaller-diameter trees common in overgrown forests and plantations.

Federal forest managers have already shifted away from controversial old-growth logging and clear-cutting, finding that they get more done when focused on less-contentious thinning projects. The trouble is that those often do not bring in as much revenue because the trees are smaller and contain less wood.

But Norm Johnson, a professor of forest resources at Oregon State University, said Wyden's strategy could create a much larger stream of timber than has come off federal lands in recent years.

University of Washington professor Jerry Franklin said Northwest forests are facing serious danger as global warming accelerates wildfires and global competition undercuts the region's timber industry. He said vulnerable forests, especially drier forests, will lose old-growth trees and all if they burn up.

Tom Partin of the American Forest Resources Council, an industry group in Portland, said the timber industry would work with Wyden.

"There comes a time when the forest needs some help, the climate needs some help, the industry needs some help," he said. "We want to be at the table."

Michael Milstein: 503-294-7689; michaelmilstein@ news.oregonian.com

©2008 The Oregonian
 
Time will tell.... The plan appears to be very logical and in the best interest of forest ecology, economy and public safety. Unfortunately the extremist do not use logic for their anti-cutting campaigns.
Too bad the eastern population of representatives have a say in the voting of the plan.

Our (east coast) ecosystems are nothing like the west coast. The trees look more like weeds and the last time we had significant fires in New Hampshire was 1946. And significant was a few hundred acres. This leaves me to ask, How can a person who grew up in the east understand the processes or shear magnitude of the western forest\ecosystems?? I can not see such occurring.
 
i don't think it's gonna work

it's another one of those quick fixes for the environment and they never work

also, it's forestry on an extremely broad basis

clear cutting must be done on certain species, such as doug fir

and what if an insect break out starts in the old growth?
if we can't cut it then we'll have another outbreak epidemic
much like the pine beetle epidemic
 
No clear cutting? Really, how about smaller clearcuts with all riparian areas preserved? Thats the smart way, selective logging is more dangerous, costs more per load and is not a good firebreak. Selective is done here where the road bulding costs would be prohibitave, but the do-gooders call it high-grading. That was as far as I got, it was in the first key element.
 
i don't think it's gonna work

it's another one of those quick fixes for the environment and they never work

also, it's forestry on an extremely broad basis

clear cutting must be done on certain species, such as doug fir

and what if an insect break out starts in the old growth?
if we can't cut it then we'll have another outbreak epidemic
much like the pine beetle epidemic


+1 keep the government out of it.Nothing they do was done with much thought. OR experiance
 
I would like to hope it worked. But who really knows. I know most of the logging companies around here are cutting their crews back pretty hard. A lot of the Forest Service and BLM personal are no longer carried through most of the winter/spring to help out with the spending issues. Even my job is slowly slipping towards a black hole. Just my 2 cents.
 
I also doubt it will work. There are some people who will not be satisfied if any logging is taking place and if they don't get their way it will be lawsuits. Stalemate is what they want and it is what they will get.
Then you've got preconditions that don't favor proper management. Clear cuts have their place, not PC. Sounds like foresters hamstrung before they start.
And last but not least there's the committee thing. I'm serving on a stake holder committee right now and It's obvious to me that that is one sure way to not get anything done.
 
I also doubt it will work. There are some people who will not be satisfied if any logging is taking place and if they don't get their way it will be lawsuits. Stalemate is what they want and it is what they will get.
Then you've got preconditions that don't favor proper management. Clear cuts have their place, not PC. Sounds like foresters hamstrung before they start.
And last but not least there's the committee thing. I'm serving on a stake holder committee right now and It's obvious to me that that is one sure way to not get anything done.

Too many of them now make their living off of litigation dealing with timber sales. I have written our Reps and Senators in DC about no clearcutting. Doug-fir can grow without clearcutting, but our huckleberry ground is shrinking while the pickers are increasing. Clearcutting and burning in the higher elevations is what makes huckleberry brush. Elk habitat too.

I would rather see an age cap than diameter cap. The latter is what most "environmental" groups demand. We timber people are not ever to be trusted without some kind of a limit. I've been told we are just not ever to be trusted.

That plan is already what is going on here. What happens when we run out of plantations to thin and all we have are trees older than that age? Nobody addresses that little aspect. We also have overly buffered streams or any little drainage that even looks like it might carry a trickle of water. Snails and slugs are more important. EVERYTHING is more important than cutting a tree and keeping the valley economy a little bit healthy. People still threaten to sue.

Foresters should be the ones who decide what is best on lands designated for timber management--not somebody who "feels" what is best for the land.
Nor politicians, who care only about being reelected.
 
Foresters should be the ones who decide what is best on lands designated for timber management--not somebody who "feels" what is best for the land.
Nor politicians, who care only about being reelected.

:clap:
 
Foresters should be the ones who decide what is best on lands designated for timber management--not somebody who "feels" what is best for the land.
Nor politicians, who care only about being reelected.

+1

I know throughout this winter. My company was contracted by BLM and the FS for fuels reduction in certain areas. Which I would think, would slip into this subject here. Depending on our units. The 58 acres we cut out of Glendale, Or. Everything was based and spaced off the old grown. Cut every hardwood thats under 16 inches, spacing from hardwood to hardwood was 40ft inbetween. For softwoods, spacing was only 25ft and couldn't cut anything over 14 inches. All brush was to be cut. Standing snags were to be cut and left unbucked. You know what though, it works great and it pulled a lot of canopy choking out, giving the older trees more room to grow. Yet it still gave the smaller trees enough area to prosper as well.

Or the unit we worked over for the FS. It was an Oak release program. Any hardwood under an inch is to be cut out. Thats it. All Oak, Madrone, Buck Brush, Manzanita. As for Douglas Fir and other softwoods? Take everything 24 inches or small.

As for understory brush! Holy :censored: , on Dutchman Mtn. From the top of the hill and about 1000ft down. Under all the old growth. Its nothing but 30-40ft tall Roadies! :cry: Thats on our list for next winter to cut out.

And just do I didn't confuse someone, like it normally happens to me. This isn't logging. This is cutting, bucking, hand piles and burning them at 5 year turns.
 
Foresters should be the ones who decide what is best on lands designated for timber management--not somebody who "feels" what is best for the land.
Nor politicians, who care only about being reelected.

It seems like we have gotten into one size fits all management. If something works good in Virginia or where ever it must be the way to go in Western WA, SE AK, Arizona or where ever. The powers that be don't seem to give the people that were hired to manage the land any credit for intelligence. The court system seems to exaserbate the problem. I don't forsee any changes except less logging on federal lands. Just the nature of politics and our increasingly urbanised society.
 
This area does not burn frequently. But when it does, it goes big time. We have entire drainages that were burned over in the early 1900s. So, fuels reduction is not a big thing. We are pretty much known as an asbestos forest. We get east winds in the late summer and fall, and that is when the historic fires have burned. There are acres and acres of second growth, with an occasional old survivor tree. Most people don't understand this about the area.

The other reason why nobody should count on making a living on Federal land here is that there are so many operating restrictions. October 1 is the start of the wet season, fish might be endangered. December is winter range--stay out of the lowlands where people used to work when snowed out of the upper elevations. January is the Bald Eagle nesting time. February is Marbled Murrelet?? (not certain on that one) Feb 31 to July 1 is Spotted Owl nesting.
August thru September work is restricted to starting one hour after sunup and must stop one hour before sundown due to Marble Murrelets. July thru September is likely to have fire restrictions and go into hootowl. Then there's recreational restrictions, snowmobiling in the winter etc. One even has no log trucks hauling from 6AM to 7AM during the school year. We know the log truckers just like to run over the children waiting for the bus.:) It gets more and more complex every year. A lot of this has to do with politicians trying to "help" in the past. Just think what more they can do!
 
This area does not burn frequently. But when it does, it goes big time. We have entire drainages that were burned over in the early 1900s. So, fuels reduction is not a big thing. We are pretty much known as an asbestos forest. We get east winds in the late summer and fall, and that is when the historic fires have burned. There are acres and acres of second growth, with an occasional old survivor tree. Most people don't understand this about the area.

The other reason why nobody should count on making a living on Federal land here is that there are so many operating restrictions. October 1 is the start of the wet season, fish might be endangered. December is winter range--stay out of the lowlands where people used to work when snowed out of the upper elevations. January is the Bald Eagle nesting time. February is Marbled Murrelet?? (not certain on that one) Feb 31 to July 1 is Spotted Owl nesting.
August thru September work is restricted to starting one hour after sunup and must stop one hour before sundown due to Marble Murrelets. July thru September is likely to have fire restrictions and go into hootowl. Then there's recreational restrictions, snowmobiling in the winter etc. One even has no log trucks hauling from 6AM to 7AM during the school year. We know the log truckers just like to run over the children waiting for the bus.:) It gets more and more complex every year. A lot of this has to do with politicians trying to "help" in the past. Just think what more they can do!

Good post...and it sure helps point out the difference between logging on Government ground and logging on private lands.

Maybe this is why we're seeing so many loggers, and whole logging outfits, coming down here from Washington and Oregon. We have the timber, and if the economy doesn't do a complete nose dive we'll stay as busy as we are...and that's plenty busy.

Kind of like a reverse migration, isn't it? You're getting our tourists and retirees and we're getting your loggers and mill workers. I gotta believe that we're getting the best of that deal.:) We'll keep the best ones and send the culls right on back.

Now if we could just get them to quit starting every other sentence with "Well, dammit, in Washington (or Oregon...take your pick) this is how we did it" we'd all be a lot happier. Problem is...sometimes they're right. But we don't admit that to them very often. :)
 
Good post...and it sure helps point out the difference between logging on Government ground and logging on private lands.

Maybe this is why we're seeing so many loggers, and whole logging outfits, coming down here from Washington and Oregon. We have the timber, and if the economy doesn't do a complete nose dive we'll stay as busy as we are...and that's plenty busy.

Kind of like a reverse migration, isn't it? You're getting our tourists and retirees and we're getting your loggers and mill workers. I gotta believe that we're getting the best of that deal.:) We'll keep the best ones and send the culls right on back.

Now if we could just get them to quit starting every other sentence with "Well, dammit, in Washington (or Oregon...take your pick) this is how we did it" we'd all be a lot happier. Problem is...sometimes they're right. But we don't admit that to them very often. :)

Ha,ha,ha, good to hear your clicking along there Bob.

Allot of the problems today are caused by the sins of the past. That "trust" factor as Slowp mentioned is a biggie and in my opinion it's ignorance of proper foresty practice by those blocking everything and making decisions that ultimately screw thing up worse. Some species just don't take too thining. The next wind that comes down the pike and you've got blowdown on a big scale. In situations like that, you are better off clearing and replanting. I don't think there are any absolutes in "proper" management. An occasion will always come up. It's become like coal mining was or the fishing industry is now. We just can't stand any more "help"!
 
I pretty much agree with Slowp, except my citeria for harvest wouldn't be based on basal diameter or age, but rather site index. Harvest and replant sites that meet I-IV class on a sustainable yield, and leave the V-VII sites alone.

How much longer can this nation afford the selfish interests of the GreenPeople and their attys.?
 

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