Justifying riding the load line

[Thillmaine]

The company I work for is currently bidding a large crane removal project. The project is for a large corporation and we need to justify that the best and safest way to do this project is by setting the climber in the tree from the load line. OSHA will be involved with the project. I am looking for reasons that you guys/girls might have for this. The trees are not dead, or hazardous but we have no other feasable means of removing them, there is minimal access through many other peoples propertys. I repeat is is really not an option to do this any other way.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Will you need to exit the tree as the crane moves the load out? Multiple ascent descent's and worker fatigue would be a good one.

Contact Norm Hall at The Care Of Trees Chicago, they do it regularly. Their system is placing a secured clevis over the ball, and a friction saver and carabiner through the clevis.

Take a copy of the Z-133 with you. Contact the crane company to ensure that they will allow it, have it in the contract that the work will be done in this process in accordance with ANSI, then quote the paragraph.

Without any hazard or risk of failure, fatigue may be the only way to sell it. OSHA is skeptical of some of our practices, they don't care about production.

 

[BC WetCoast]

Make sure the crane company is on board. The largest crane company around here doesn't allow anybody to ride the hook except in a man cage.

Why can't a climber just climb each tree? Other than it's hard work?

How large is the project? ie how many trees?

 

[randyg]

You only want to ride the load line to get the climber into the tree correct?

 

[Thillmaine]

replies

The project is 50 miles long. Clearing a river for dredging equipment. You can imagine access problems. Crane is barge mounted. JPS thanks, but OSHA sent the crane company a letter saying that although the Z specifys all of it, and we have our clevis and all, OSHA supercedes the Z and prety much they are not having it. THey want us to use a man lift off a barge, but its not feasable either. Cant manipulate a stright boom into a position to make athe right cut.

 

[jomoco]

Get a real climber and get to work.

jomoco

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

The project is 50 miles long. Clearing a river for dredging equipment. You can imagine access problems. Crane is barge mounted. JPS thanks, but OSHA sent the crane company a letter saying that although the Z specifys all of it, and we have our clevis and all, OSHA supercedes the Z and prety much they are not having it. THey want us to use a man lift off a barge, but its not feasable either. Cant manipulate a stright boom into a position to make athe right cut.

Maybe get in contact with Gerstenberger to see if TCIA and ISA can can help.

Is it a practicality issue, or safety in access? OSHA will not care about practicality since this is a production issue, not safety.

Maybe if you could show that using a basket you would be degrading the environment too much by cutting your way in to access the safe entry.

You need to show that it is the safest way to get the worker into the tree. IMO it will take too long for OSHA to move on it even if you could convince them. They have made up their minds on this that a manbasket is safer then a secure line with a qualified climber.

Is the an ACoE project? Could you get them behind the methodology?

 

[Thillmaine]

hmm

Jomoco lots of respect to you, but some of these trees are in the water. Literally most of the tree is submerged. Two cranes would be used in this position, one for the tree and one for the climber. I suppose it would be possible to do it the old way, climbing and waiting for the sling, but we only have a limited time frame here, project must be completed within a window of only ten months. That includes dredging and tree removal. The trees will take a month or two, the dredging is not my concern. It is more of a productivity concern then anything. We have plenty of qualified climbers, but a lot of these trees are monstorous silver maples and cotton woods and would be much easier and safer to access by crane. Tying in on some of them also would be imposible after the first pick without a rope guide or some other device that allows you to descend on a spar. We have a meeting with all of the companie sinvolved on monday. I will keep everyone posted and will have some DAMN good pics come this spring.
I think worker fatigue is a good standpoint but I think tha OSHA is not concerned with productivity (looking at the leter they sent us.)
Keep the replies coming.
As far as Peter goes, I have talked with him in the past. The Letter says specifically until TCIA and other regulatory agencys ahve produced legislation/laws on this, then we are bound to the typical standards. But on the brighter side of things, maybe in 2010 all will be well and good if TCIA straightens OSHA out.

 

[murphy4trees]

you've answered your own question

Well if even a good climber couldn't get positioned safely , trees in the water and all... It seems pretty obvious that it is a lot safer to access the trees by crane than any other way... This seems so obvious to anyone with even a bit of common sense and work experieince. The shame of it is that it is almost expected that OSHA would act with such stupidity.

The basket is dangerous, because it doesn't allow proper postioning on the tree due to interfering limbs preventing access... causing overextending with the saw, and strapping off the loads at places that can be reached rather than at optimum placement points, potentially causing the load to be improperly balanced which could cause the load to flip, shock loading the crane to point of failure, collapsing on and killing the climber in his basket... The logic of those two points is unquestionable in my mind. Use them! and pray these OSHA beaurocrats have the common sense of a third grader. MY 8 YEAR OLD SON COULD UNDERSTAND THAT!

It is unfortunate that a few accidents by ill-trained and unskilled idiots bring forth these regulations which are like a stone in the show for the rest of the industry, clearly illustrated in cases such as this.

Good luck with the project.
Keep us posted

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Since it is 2 cranes, would a small manbasket work for the project?

Also is this the federal OSHA, or a state agency that works under it?

 

[murphy4trees]

one more thought

If you are hanging from a rope with a nice high angle to your overhead tie in point, the clevis, and the piece starts to move after it breaks free, you have a lot more agility to get out of the way than if you are in a basket.... Basically you can push away and swing a lot faster on a rope than you can in a basket. Also working from a rope allows you to inspect both sides of the cut, before starting, rather than cutting with a blind side which could result in kickback... Then there is one more argument to make... Repetitive motion injuries... climbers are going to be doing a lot of moving around on spikes if they can;t ride the ball... Month after month of spiking everyday is going to add up and take its toll on the body... It is always good to mix it up and give the body some time to rest and heal by not doing the same kind of work all day everyday..

Make all those arguments.. They are all true and I bet the people here can come up with a few more if they put their minds to it.

 

[jomoco]

Jomoco lots of respect to you, but some of these trees are in the water. Literally most of the tree is submerged. Two cranes would be used in this position, one for the tree and one for the climber. I suppose it would be possible to do it the old way, climbing and waiting for the sling, but we only have a limited time frame here, project must be completed within a window of only ten months. That includes dredging and tree removal. The trees will take a month or two, the dredging is not my concern. It is more of a productivity concern then anything. We have plenty of qualified climbers, but a lot of these trees are monstorous silver maples and cotton woods and would be much easier and safer to access by crane. Tying in on some of them also would be imposible after the first pick without a rope guide or some other device that allows you to descend on a spar. We have a meeting with all of the companie sinvolved on monday. I will keep everyone posted and will have some DAMN good pics come this spring.
I think worker fatigue is a good standpoint but I think tha OSHA is not concerned with productivity (looking at the leter they sent us.)
Keep the replies coming.
As far as Peter goes, I have talked with him in the past. The Letter says specifically until TCIA and other regulatory agencys ahve produced legislation/laws on this, then we are bound to the typical standards. But on the brighter side of things, maybe in 2010 all will be well and good if TCIA straightens OSHA out.

My apologies Thillmaine, I spoke before realizing the overall environment which the contract entails.

Good luck with your contract, and OSHA.

I look forward to seeing some good pics of the job.

jomoco

 

[pdqdl]

I have no experience whatsoever with this type of work, but there are some things about this scenario I don't understand.

Are you removing all the trees, or just trimming what is overhanging the river?

How is the wood being managed after it is cut? Dropped into a barge, a barge mounted tub grinder, or what?

If removing the whole tree, why not fix a line to the main trunk of the tree, drop it in the river, crane it to the barge, and then deal with it?

The only disadvantage that I can see would be how much wood can be allowed to be released into the river. Obviously big chunks could be caught, but if they don't accept any floaters to escape, that would be a problem.

 

[(WLL)]

i guess dropping the trees in the river and towing them to a place where they can be delt with is out?

 

[murphy4trees]

one more one more

Here's another one that occurred to me when I just woke up..
When a man in a basket is trying to cut limbs out of the way of the basket to accesss the trunk, he cannot reach under the basket to make the cuts, so he'll need to position under the branch where it could fall on him when it breaks free.. ALso should a corner of the basket get caught as the cable gets pulled up, it cause a violent shift in the basket and throw the climber into the either the tree or the basket.. Just so much more trouble to position the climber in a basket, there are just a lot more chances of getting hurt!

 

[Panama]

It is obvious to anyone that has done this type of work, but not to a desk jockey. Get you a dry erase board, and SHOW them how the basket cannot be positioned in a safe location, and SHOW them how being attached to a crane would allow the climber to manuver out of harms way. Most, if not all of the trees will be leaning out toward the barge/water, which makes it the only wrong location for the lift to be located (in relation to the trees). If common sense does not work, you may want to request arbitration with three experienced arborists on one side and three OSHA desk jockeys on the other. Good luck.

 

[Thillmaine]

Trees in the river is a no go. We have a processing barge. We need bidegradable bar oil, and only veggie based oil in our chippers. I beleive this is a federal OSHA deal. Cutting our way in woudl be the only way with a man basket or man lift. No debris are to be sent in the river except sawdust. WE have 3 ISA certified arborists on the deal, buit again regadless of our certification etc, it really makes no difference to OSHA. Fighting the pocket protectors is gonna be next to impossible without legal action.We are trying to get the corporation on board and get them to help out with their corporate lawyers.
Practicality is a no issue here. OSHA could care less if we have to swim the peices to the barge, as long as its safe. My reasons so far,:
-fatigue
-repatative motion
-poor sling and cut placement
-cutting our way in is the only way a man basket will work
-not being able to react to a peice gone wrong
-cuts will be above the head or at head level out of any sort of lift/basket (not sure if this is against the Z but I try not to do it)
-basket requires someone elses knowledge to manuever (the crane operators are no tree guys) so this can be a hazard
-a man lift a has a straight non articulating boom, leading to all sorts of problems (except a spyder lift, but I have been in a tuepen and they are useless for manueverability

My boss has a meeting tommorow and we will see what comes out of it.
THanks and keep the replies coming

 

[D Mc]

Thillmaine, I have two questions. Is this job possible to do according to specs that the feds have laid down? and if not, does your company have enough confidence in that answer to step aside knowing that no one else will be able to fulfill the specs?

If you are fighting this merely to achieve an easier and cheaper solution, I don't see you winning or OSHA giving in.

Several of your reasonings have been based towards practicality and efficiency which, as we all know, is not the government way. You must prove an inability to proceed in order for a change to happen.

Dave

 

[BCMA]

Thillmaine,
I’m trying to envision this scenario in my mind. It appears to me that a climber would be in a much safer position working from a dynamic safety line attached to load line of a crane, than working out of a bucket attached to the crane which would be more static. A safety or climbing line would allow more options for the climber to adjust his working position, and give more options for an escape route. I’m sure you are consulting ANSI Z133.1-2006 and the BMP’s for Crane Use in Arboriculture???

I would definitely contact Peter at the TCIA and employ his help.

 

[pdqdl]

Why not use a manlift with articulation attached to the barge? You could probably rent a really big bucket truck, set it (firmly attached) onto a barge. I should think that would be even faster than trying to work a man from the load line of a crane. For a job this expensive sounding, maybe one of the bigger spyder lifts would even make you happy. They have several models with frighteningly large lift heights, but the side reach is not so great.

Naturally, that presumes you can get the barge close to the tree.. I presume you would be required to anchor the barge somehow to control drift/movement. Probably two big concerns there for either cranes or manlift.