Lawsuit over wood burning in Live Free or Die state

[fiasco]

Wood smoke has Candia neighbors fired up enough to file suit | New Hampshire NEWS

I don't know if this is a case of bad luck geography, the alleged polluter burning tires and railroad ties, the "other neighbors" having smoke dragons or just some people with a super sensitive smoke allergy.

Nonetheless, just what we need, lawyers involved in a wood smoke dispute. Fantastic.

Please do your best to keep the smoke down so we don't get regulated into paying the oil man to stay warm.

 

[stihly dan]

Oh, thats such crap. I have seen the area. No way is this an issue. Another case of m#######s moving in and trying to change the way of life of nh. They better lose. But common sense seems to be over ruled lately.

 

[dingeryote]

I hate Citiots that show up and smile all friendly, while the moving crew is unloading the truckload of big city ignorance and overdeveloped sense of entitlement they bring with them.

Nothing kills a small community as fast or efficiently, as getting labeled "Quaint" in some yuppie tourist magazine.

I'm thinking the locals should start keeping bees, and encouraging the skunks.
And find the dude that is burning tires and garbage, for a quick community application of the peoples elbow.

The Chitcago FIP's are just as bad as Mass holes. You guys have my sympathies.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote

 

[Steve NW WI]

Here's a pic of the area, from Google Maps. The woodburners are at 54, on the bottom of the pic. The people suing are at 60.

NH guys, what are the prevailing winds there? Around here, most commonly it's from the NW during heating season, would not be affecting the neighbors if that is the case there.

I looked it up, expecting to see an "EVIL OWB" (don't go off on me OWB guys, notice the quotes), but all I found were 2 houses within about 50 feet of each other in a small subdivision in a rural area.

OP, please keep us posted as more details come out on this one.

 

[russhd1997]

Here's a pic of the area, from Google Maps. The woodburners are at 54, on the bottom of the pic. The people suing are at 60.

NH guys, what are the prevailing winds there? Around here, most commonly it's from the NW during heating season, would not be affecting the neighbors if that is the case there.

I looked it up, expecting to see an "EVIL OWB" (don't go off on me OWB guys, notice the quotes), but all I found were 2 houses within about 50 feet of each other in a small subdivision in a rural area.

OP, please keep us posted as more details come out on this one.

The prevailing winds here are mostly from the west. I positioned my OWB to the east of my house for that reason. My closest neighbor lives to the south of me and I never hear a complaint. If I did I would shut off the pump from the OWB to their house! :msp_biggrin:

Did you read the comments too? A couple of asshats that must own stocks in big oil!

 

[zogger]

Wood smoke has Candia neighbors fired up enough to file suit | New Hampshire NEWS

I don't know if this is a case of bad luck geography, the alleged polluter burning tires and railroad ties, the "other neighbors" having smoke dragons or just some people with a super sensitive smoke allergy.

Nonetheless, just what we need, lawyers involved in a wood smoke dispute. Fantastic.

Please do your best to keep the smoke down so we don't get regulated into paying the oil man to stay warm.

IF that were to happen, getting banned from burning wood, and you are forced into fuel oil or propane, etc., spend the money as fast as possible on retrofitting to REAL "super insulation" standards, which is R60 all around. Plus some other stuff like active planned air into and out of the home. seen it, done it on several properties now, it is this side of science fiction level amazing. Best ROI of anything heating and cooling energy related out there. It's really one of those things that has to be experienced to really grok it, just reading about it falls real short.

There are very few homes in the US actually built to this standard, even brand new so called "well insulated" homes..aren't.

I've posted this link before a few times, I'll do it again for any folks who might have missed it

Superinsulation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[blades]

Unfortunately most of us live in old,outdated, run down, ramshackle, built by gov. approved contractors (that cheated on the materials), buildings that would require somewhere of north of $250,000 to meet your specifications. We also drive vehicles that drive most insects or for that matter most living things into hiding for at least 2 hours or until the prevailing breezes clear the immediate vicinity of the excessively high pollutants generated by our gov. approved vehicles. We eat red meat and consume vast quantities of fermented beverages and have yet to figure out away to make use of the methane gas generated in doing so. ( how am I doing, have I pissed everyone off yet?)

 

[zogger]

Unfortunately most of us live in old,outdated, run down, ramshackle, built by gov. approved contractors (that cheated on the materials), buildings that would require somewhere of north of $250,000 to meet your specifications. We also drive vehicles that drive most insects or for that matter most living things into hiding for at least 2 hours or until the prevailing breezes clear the immediate vicinity of the excessively high pollutants generated by our gov. approved vehicles. We eat red meat and consume vast quantities of fermented beverages and have yet to figure out away to make use of the methane gas generated in doing so. ( how am I doing, have I pissed everyone off yet?)

I have no idea how/why you came up with 250 grand or retrofitting some existing house. I have worked on several, it is no where's near that. I guess if you live in a 40,000 square foot open to the elements old barn maybe..one with no doors.

The first one I worked on, up in maine, myself and the owner did the entire retrofit in two weeks (he tooks his vacation time to do it), And it was so successful that for the most part he only burned small fires on the very coldest nights. Ambient heat inside the house from the people in there and cooking, and electric lightbulbs and heat from the TV and so on was sufficient. I I had to really guess..I am thinking 2-3 years total payback on materials and labor, ater that, gravy. Long time ago I don't recall all the little details and it wasn't my house either.

We kicked around ideas for one evening, then went for it. We had little to go buy (this is mid 70s), just started with the premise that the current walls and windows and roof sucked bad for heat loss, and just a little patching wasn't going to do much of anything. Most of the work was retrofitting some better windows (triple pane ), one smaller, the main picture window in the living room, and adding non load bearing interior walls along the exterior walls (In another half a foot) and a lot of loose insulation (blow in). then go around and tighten up more leaks as ound. Simple actually. His winter heating bill was over his mortgage cost before the work. The wood heater installed was one of those small mobile home units with its own air intake plumbed to the outside. (heat was electric and propane before)

It was something to experience, sitting around comfy in teens and single digits outside with NO actual heating anything turned on. He'd crank up a little fire at night when it was going below zero, that was about it. Very minimal wood or other energy usage. All the work was done in january, and that included reroofing besides adding to the attic insulation in mass quantities, I mean a lot. It was feet deep.

The tech since then and research (passivhaus) has gone lots farther. We were just winging it and the results were outstanding, the owner was REALLY happy with the results.

 

[rmihalek]

loss of footprint

I liked the reply Zogger, but it sounds like there's a considerable loss of square footage in the living areas if you're putting in these false walls and then pumping insulation in behind it. Am I understanding the process correctly?

 

[Encore]

Man that sucks. Fortunately around here a TON of people burn wood so it's not really much of an issue. A lot of them are amish homes.

Sometimes it never hurts to use a little planning when you have neighbors that close. Like lighting the fire later at night when they aren't outside (since that's when you get the most smoke going) and burning it nice and hot etc. When our stove is going there is really no smoke coming out of the chimney.

Maybe some things like a taller chimney, good cleaning on the wood stove, etc would be a good idea?

You have to think that if someone went to all the trouble of hiring a lawyer and suing someone else over a wood stove, there must be some problem, even if they are exaggerating the issue (find it hard to believe it was coming in their closed windows)

However, if I felt I was taking every precaution to keep the smoke to a minimum and someone was suing me, I'd hire my own lawyer and put him to work. No way I'm stopping burning wood just because someone is an idiot.

 

[blades]

Zogger, that was tongue in cheek, I am fully aware of the various methods used to reduce heat loss in a dwelling, I am also painfully aware of of the costs to do so. The average length of stay in a home is about 7 years, therefor paybacks need to at least zero out in that amount of time. My current dwelling has been reduced from and avg. of $375/mo to apx $105/mo. Extremely difficult to pin it down due to the exponential increases handed out by the power company's on a semi annual basis. In light of those increases i have done very well in staying at apx. the same monthly cost over the past 4 years. break even point for me is roughly another 3-4 years down the road at the present time.

 

[mga]

Johnson also said that she and her husband run the stove properly and use well-seasoned wood that contains no chemicals that her husband cuts himself.

sounds like they're legit.

i agree the comments were absurd, but these days we have more than our fair share of "off the wall" nuts who think they're choking on every thing. they're probably the same joggers who run along side a highway...."for their health"...as cars and trucks pass by them.

but, i expect to see much more of these complaints in the future.

 

[Sandhill Crane]

From my posts you know I have been on both sides of the neighbor thing, and I live several miles outside of town for thirty plus years now in October. This deadend road has, and continues to change, as an extended part of a seasonal resort community. So I'm not choosing sides here without being there. My comment is to act responsibly.
If someone is cutting standing wood this weekend and selling it, or burning it this winter, that is not only not acting responsibly, and is working against everyone that is. Negative acts most always scream louder than positive ones. Listen to the news, ...or not. Small things add up (just like firewood piles), as in the positive and negative impacts of our combined individual acts as firewood sellers and users. Please keep us updated on this specific issue, in part so we may be more pro-active and less reactive.

 

[Dalmatian90]

Bing has another view of the neighborhood...and I just can't quite figure it out.

Bing Maps - Driving Directions, Traffic and Road Conditions

The school house looks like it may have been converted to a fire station at some point before becoming the plaintiffs garage. This is just a little New Hampshire village that's had a bypass built around it (they're a dime a dozen in NH).

But the thing is...the only chimney that looks questionable is on what the maps say is the plaintiff's house (#60) confirmed by the description of the school house next door that they also own. Sure looks like there's a chimney on the south side of the house, on the 1 story part with 1-1/2 story parts of the house on the east and north side, and a line of tall evergreen trees close to the south side. Unless that chimney is a lot taller then it appears from above (including looking at how long it's shadow is compared to the house's shadow), I could see *their* smoke just hanging out in their own yard.

If it hadn't been for the description of the school house, I would've assumed that was the offender.

 

[zogger]

I liked the reply Zogger, but it sounds like there's a considerable loss of square footage in the living areas if you're putting in these false walls and then pumping insulation in behind it. Am I understanding the process correctly?

that way, yes, some loss of interior square footage, although it isn't that bad just doing it on the exterior wall facing sides. You don't have to do it that way though, you can go exterior.

Passivhaus has interesting vids of a total house job. Supposedly only around 13 houses in the US built to those more modern standards. Goto youtube, "biohaus"

there's just a ton of ways to approach it, retrofitting is fairly diferent from built from scratch.

Bwa! Where I live now even a layer of conventional insulation would be an improvement! It has *none*. Real old plank side cabin. I don't own here, not doing all that work, labor plus materials. And my wood cutting is half paid for work, keeping pastures clean plus dealing with the blowdowns around the farm, and half "sport" to me, so ..ain't that bad. If I had to pop for conventional heating out of pocket, well, I'd be burning rubber to go get insulation. I'd rather pay for more insulation and better windows once, then pay the propane or oil guy forever. And even with wood, rather burn less then free up the stacks for sale or barter down the road.

I use the boss's tractor and his diesel to go get my wood now, that's the tradeoff, I just burn more wood now. If and when I own this place or move to another place that I will own, yes, going superinsulation. Plus a dang storm shelter.

 

[zogger]

Zogger, that was tongue in cheek, I am fully aware of the various methods used to reduce heat loss in a dwelling, I am also painfully aware of of the costs to do so. The average length of stay in a home is about 7 years, therefor paybacks need to at least zero out in that amount of time. My current dwelling has been reduced from and avg. of $375/mo to apx $105/mo. Extremely difficult to pin it down due to the exponential increases handed out by the power company's on a semi annual basis. In light of those increases i have done very well in staying at apx. the same monthly cost over the past 4 years. break even point for me is roughly another 3-4 years down the road at the present time.

That's cool, just throwing some info out there. There's so many ways to do it and go about it, especially retrofitting.

Me, starting from scratch..I would probably do earth bermed if I had the loot and resources to do that. Second choice would be cordwood masonry (as opposed to a conventional log cabin). Third choice straw bale. Last choice stick frame with thicker exterior walls and much more than industry norm insulation, at least another layer on the outside under the siding.

Stick frame is obviously the most common type of residential construction, so there ya go.

I just like the idea of walls so thick they add both storm protection and insulation value, so that's why I listed my preference criteria.

 

[hangfirew8]

In my region, superinsulated also means humid, sick house, unless both fresh air and active dehumidification are also installed. But fresh air means energy loss and passive exchangers save less than 50% and dynamic fresh air adds expensive complexity.

I know a few ancient farmhouse owners who have gotten wrapped, new windows, or both. The savings and comfort difference is phenomonal. But wrap R values are only R6 or R8 but they are much better off than my modern R22, sandwiched between a bunch of R4 studs. The difference is there insulation is contiguous mine is interrupted by low R wood.

I looked into all this when I upgraded my furnace to dual fuel. I have a modern house so the gains of SI would be more minimal. On top of that there are no contractors in the area who know how to properly integrate dynamic Fresh air intakes and energy recovery. I know I've worked with them all through my old jobs leases including some complex splits (not mini) with integrated fresh air. The fact is dynamic fresh air is conceptually simple but no one knows how to set the temp and humidity thresholds properly. All the connections are on the control board but even the factory doesn't know how to use one of them at once.

The point of all this is R60 is not necessary for savings and comfort, and in humid+hot+cold climates may create a sick house or a complex expensive HVAC system that only an engineer owner can sort out.

I have halved my heat/cool energy bill by making mostly small targeted changes and one big one. All have paid for themselves in 5 years.

 

[zogger]

In my region, superinsulated also means humid, sick house, unless both fresh air and active dehumidification are also installed. But fresh air means energy loss and passive exchangers save less than 50% and dynamic fresh air adds expensive complexity.

I know a few ancient farmhouse owners who have gotten wrapped, new windows, or both. The savings and comfort difference is phenomonal. But wrap R values are only R6 or R8 but they are much better off than my modern R22, sandwiched between a bunch of R4 studs. The difference is there insulation is contiguous mine is interrupted by low R wood.

I looked into all this when I upgraded my furnace to dual fuel. I have a modern house so the gains of SI would be more minimal. On top of that there are no contractors in the area who know how to properly integrate dynamic Fresh air intakes and energy recovery. I know I've worked with them all through my old jobs leases including some complex splits (not mini) with integrated fresh air. The fact is dynamic fresh air is conceptually simple but no one knows how to set the temp and humidity thresholds properly. All the connections are on the control board but even the factory doesn't know how to use one of them at once.

The point of all this is R60 is not necessary for savings and comfort, and in humid+hot+cold climates may create a sick house or a complex expensive HVAC system that only an engineer owner can sort out.

I have halved my heat/cool energy bill by making mostly small targeted changes and one big one. All have paid for themselves in 5 years.

Small changes add up! After that first house some years later I was working on a startup doing the same thing. We would get before and after pics of the home using infrared (contracted out). the biggest gains were consistently at the windows and doors and obvious big holes going into the house like or plumbing. We did more insulation last if the HO wanted it. It just varied a lot, how much they wanted to spend. Heck, just those little electrical receptacle foam things helped a lot. We did all the little stuff, then onto the costs serious money stuff.

(weirdness..we were doing good, the guy who started the company just moved out over a weekend, burned all of us workers (I was main window guy) with rubber checks..why he did this I don't know, that's the last I worked in that business) (Plus it is too hard to get people to understand better insulation is worth more than an upgraded fuel burning unit..they don't believe it..too bad.."conservation" is a dirty word to most people today, most like to brag on how much of everything they burn, gas/diesel/electric/wood..whatever. Let energy prices double or triple in a short time frame, the sentiment changes back. I don't argue with folks anymore about this, let them pay through the nose for energy)

The windows especially though on the most gains to be had for most places I have seen. Instead of swapping in triple panes for real big bucks, we would add interior plexi windows that mounted with magnetic strips, they just snap in place. Those are medium bucks and even cheap bucks if you do it all yourself. You can score scratch and dent plexi (and then polish it) and find the magnetic particle plastic extrusions for the edges and use anything or the steel mount, old strapping works, paint over it. Put the new interior plexi no more than two inches out from the existing window, and no closer than an inch, works the best inside that range. That and pull what trim is there and caulk up the leaks. Same at the doors.

You are correct on the roll insulation and the loss at the studs. Need another layer over that, like sheet foam or something.

All of this is why I am in favor of just massive thick walls and roof, earth bermed. Besides the energy savings.well..let's just say my views on ANY type of conventional construction changed radically after two years ago having the tornado put a half a cord or better oak branch in the living room with us.

Better homes and bunkers!

 

[Yotehunter66]

I've seen the same thing around here but with farms. We've actually had people trying to sue farms around here because the smell. Duh! These farms had been around for years before some city slicker moved out there and then wanted them to control their smell. So far they are losing.

 

[Dalmatian90]

Ironic(?)

This guy is from the town involved:

Big boy chainsaws! Stihl 044 440 064

I could cut my firewood for a season, including noodling, and never use the same saw twice