learning by accident

[murphy4trees]

I was falling a small-medium red maple a few weeks ago... maybe 12-15 dbh..
The lz was fairly wide, plenty of room... That's where I like to play a little.. So I was showing the open face notch to someone and cut it slightly off left of my desired gun... Decided it would be OK no matter, but I would use the back cut to steer her to the right...

What happenned was the tree fell perfectly perpendicular to the backcut, which really surprised me. I know the back cut can steer a tree, but usually consider the notch to have a greater influence on direction than the back cut. I looked at the hinge later to try and understand what happenned... And the best I could tell is the tree fell in line with the back cut because the back cut was a little high. Any of you loggers out there know about this..

The larger point is that when things don't react the way they are expected to, there is something to be learned..

 

[John Ellison]

Softwood trees will usually steer past the face with a tapered hinge. My limited hardwood exp. says the same. Even with the backcut at the same level.

John

 

[begleytree]

In my experience, the backcut is all that really matters. The notch is (to me ) only used to allow the tree to lean and break without barberchairing, and kicking off the stump. I've never had a tree follow the notch regardless of the backcut, I always have them follow the backcut regardless of the notch, within reason of course.

How many times have you counteracted a lean by cutting out your notch, then putting it back in on one side or the other? I mean if you are falling say straight out and the tree leans to the left a little, cut your notch, pull it out then place it back in on the left side ( off center). it causes the tree to start in the direction of pull, then kick to the right a proportionate amount based upon how much /how large the notch is that was placed on the left.
I only use it when a tree has a small lean towards an object, but can really only be pulled straight because of other objects limiting the pulling path. Make a slightly higher backcut than usual, and leave some holding wood.
-Ralph

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Good topic; even in loss at bet on direction, there can be gain in lesson, if you allow it to be so; or even urge it along. Even making a point to remeber them; even if you don't understand all right then, to be gone thru as a catalog of experience to check newer theories by as they come about. Perhaps recognizing , those that neatly fit in etc.; like what feels right etc.

i think that there are 2 phases to the fall; the pulls in hinge, and pushes in face. Each phase tries to compensate to center. The pulls in the hinge stopping as the pushes inthe face start, and the hinge becomes unloaded, as the compression in face gives support, then forces tearoff etc.

As we play witht he hinge shape and direction of backcut re-lease; we alter some of the self adjusting tendencies in phase 1 of the felling. As the falls get slower, the force to the faces is less; and hence the correction available in response, so backcut would rule more by that factor i think. Also, as the face cuts get wider apart, full face closure unimpeded by ground strike etc. actual deep phase 2 process might not happen either, negating once again some correction to center, gunned face i think in that phase. thereby giving more control over to the phase 1 that we are manipulating. Thereby, about all backcut command(?)

Conversely, throwing a chunk of wood while climbing into a kerf, with backcut slanted gives counter steer i think. For there is no ride on hinge in phase 1 here (converse example to ~no phase 2 above); so :: cutting across to Right laying forward into kerf would slam to the Right face, and pitch/correct by throwing Left. Even though BackCut strategy, would have thrown Right, with a hinge/real face (or with no face!); but get a counter intuitve action into a kerf(?)


Now,

Let's Get this Party Started!

 

[Stumper]

Begley, The technique you descibe is called a Step-Dutchman.

Daniel, How was the weight distribution on that tree? Did you taper the hinge or completely eliminate it on one side? I've seen what you describe occur. In every instance there was either decay which caused a sudden hinge failure or there was a lean or other unequal weight distribution that boke out what remained of the hinge. Of course, if most of the hinge is severed then the holding wood becomes a hinge-same principle as when we cut smallstuff with a backcut only.

 

[Stumper]

I'll let my other post stand but I just reread Dan'l's description... He said it fell perpendicular to the backcut. I was envisioning a fall parrallel to the backcut-A total steering failure and NOT what was being described.

 

[Newfie]

Spidey,

You forgot to footnote your post with links to your other brilliant (and mostly unintelligible) threads.

 

[BigJohn]

Yeah isn't that something. People think I am f.ing stupid when I tell them the tree will fall with the back cut and how important that is and sometimes that is why I like to cut notch leaving that strap in the back for support so I can cut up to my hinge paralell to my face cut and make it perfect and even. Makes sense to me. But when you go though a woods all day just notching trees and trying small variations on each every day for a few years you learn a little something about that.

 

[OutOnaLimb]

What kind of lean and cannopy growth did you have in that tree. I hate to say it, but gravity, can me a mother f*cker. A rope in a tree can guide the direction of fall, Buttt, you can ony pull so much hindge. Im not an astro physiphysist, but your problem should be solved with simple mathmatics

 

[MasterBlaster]

Gravity is my friend.

We have a good working relationship.

 

[Stumper]

Oh yeah Butch? I've found that gravity lets me down every time.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

i also think you can learn from looking intently at hinging and balance of weight carried. Even, learn in reading your own work, to read others and expand your familiarity and education as in Hinge Forensics Thread

i think that the wider the face, the more ride on hinge, so that the more that the hinge /backcut matters; for it is being used more, than the faces hitting. Also, as we throw trees slower, more controlled, we take force from the face slap too. But, it is still there, it still can be dangerous or helpful; these strategies just kinda minimize its force; and invokes it late. Crossing over to rigging in tree forcing Better Hinge Support does similar.

But still, the most force would be in the Sound of 2 Faces Slapping , as just as in the compression area of a tree standing, by carrying the pull of the lean and the hinge together (or 2x lean force) is the most loaded position(?). An errant kerf dutchman etc., can throw things off. But a step Dutchman , might not get slapped hard enough and soon enough for the expected effect.

Stepping into an in between world, and taking the best from both; in non-huge stuff; i think a SwingDutchy that closes the face on one side to push (after gathering some force) as the other side is still pulling can give great help, especially steering into rigging and around other parts of the tree finding a path out with the strategies of SwingDutchy - Tapered Hinge with a Dutch Step in Opposite side of Face

Gravity is the operative force, by forcing it to work off different things we can make more use out of it. Like banking a pull shot kinda witht he force. If we use the tree's own force to steer thru using the passive hinge and face adjustments (without adding force with active forces such as wedge push or line pull that add force); the tree will not have maximum gravity pull on it (for less force) and will use some of that lessened force to steer itself; for the turn must be powered by something; when you don't add force, t he steering must be handled from the existing lean force, rechanneled.

Or, something like that,


:alien:

 

[TimberMcPherson]

I was scarfing a 70 year old pine the other day, it had a pretty heavy lean and was over 100 foot in height. the DBH would have been about 4 feet.
I noticed the bar was jamming slightly while only putting in a 8 inch deep scarf (the side we were putting the scarf it was just about dead flat while the rest of the tree was the usual shape.

Scarf done, I was about to do a backcut when we started to hear that tearing wood creaking sound we all know so well. I ran and grabbed my camera and got some great footage and sound. The tree just tore itself apart and thankfully crashed down right where we wanted it but BOY it must have had so much weight on that scarf side.

I have it in video format, any ideas how to break it down to a couple of pics?

 

[John Stewart]

Hey
That is the reason I always put in a tag line even in a no brainer
The reason might have been to much canopy on that side
If you consider a over weighted canopy in one side it may balance out or out weigh the lean of the trunk which is going the opposite direction
Also your hinge may have been to thin on one side and in a soft maple it may have prematurely failed
I had the same thing happen in a big Popular but the tag line saved my butt and the fence!
Live and learn
Be Safe
<><
John

 

[John Ellison]

Maybe I am misunderstanding what your saying, but I believe a tag line will only get it started in the right general direction. What happens at the stump is what will control the rest of the trip.

John

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Have to run vid through editor and save freeze frames.

i think with good hinge, you should apply pull line direction to target, and leverage effort of hinge machine. Pulls to correct side lean direction directly (not going thru leveraging machine of hinge); unloads the pressure from the hinge. Direction of force is always important, it is the first importance, with out a direction of pull or push, there is no force; there is only movenment when there is lack of balnce of push and pull. then the movement continues until a balance of forces is met, and the tree once again can rest conteneted/at balance. But, before moving, a direction has to be percieved,that is the sum total of all push/pulls on the motion; balance to target msut be achieved first, to move towards target; there is nbo other way, ever possible - i think.

Pulling against lean with rope does not induce the leveraging multiplier of aid int he higne i think. So, i always pull straight to target to strengthen hinge, and let hinge steer in wood i can trust.

Or something like that!

:alien:

Happy 4th Display, Click sky lots of times

 

[BigJohn]

Hey Timber get yourself a good video card for you system like the one from Raedon I believe spelling may be a bit off. You can input video and sound and take snap shots from that.