Logging by the Thousand?

[KYLogger]

I recently had a proposal from a fellow logger who runs a highball (for around here) logging outfit who is swamped (1,400 ac. under contract) right now to do some sub contract cutting and skidding (he will load and haul). He said he would pay me by the thousand. I am just starting to get serious about all this and need all the work I can get. I have logged out several smaller jobs with a farm tractor and winch etc... but am jumping in head first with the proper equipment, if I can get the work lined out. My question is has anybody done this type of work in hillside hardwood timber and if so what is a reasonable price to try to agree upon per thousand? I'll be running a two man crew with a 450 E JD dozer and a 450 TJ skidder, and to beat all the job is a half mile from the house, right next to the farm I'm logging on right now! He also said he would be willing to turn me onto some smaller jobs he has under contract that he just doesnt have time for. I don't care to work and would like to get enough work lined up to last me about a year before I say to heck with my pipeline job and become self employed again.

Tom

 

[tramp bushler]

No idea how to bid it . But figure ALL COSTS add 30% and don't go below that . Then realistically figure your production . Then if you start loggin full time . Becarefull and Don't get hurt .!!

 

[Gologit]

A member here, hammerlogging, is experienced in the kind of stuff you want to do. He's pretty sharp. If he doesn't show up on here soon I'd suggest sending him a PM. He might be able to answer some questions for you.

 

[hammerlogging]

Thanks mr gologit-

KY, what you can log it for depends on quite a few variables. you only have to cut and skid, he will deck, merchandise, and load?

I'm not sure what part of your state you're in, some places are pretty moderate but some can be truly steep. And when you say things like 1400 acres, I start to wonder about skid distance. And when the landing fills up cause he's hauling and the trucks haven't been able to get in there for 2 weeks and he won't rock the road he only rocks the road to his own landing, then what?

Also, consider board feet per tree and board feet per acre you expect to remove. So the success or failure might be hidden in the details somewhere. In fact, I gaurantee it is, cause its a slim margin business.

For starters, to give you an idea of range, which is a huge range depending on skill, capability, relationships, and on and on, the whole package can range from $140 to $215 for conventional logging. Not that you make any money more on the $215 jobs if you know what I mean. How much is the bucking and loading portion worth, well, its the part with the least variables, maybe $40/mbf Real ball park here though.

Also, you can't go into this with all your eggs in one basket, better ask around to see what you woulod do if he were to cut you off.

 

[Oldtimer]

So many things to think about, as Hammer has said..

IMO, weather is the biggest variable...if it rains hard for 2 weeks...you can get hungry.
I recall seeing you say the equipment will be owned outright...

Not to be unrealistic, but you should stop and consider a few other options.

Is it worthwhile to skip the old bone equipment and get yourself some newer high production stuff?

Let me explain with my own plan...

I was going to buy another skidder...then I decided a rubber tired sawhead was better..
then I though about it, and decided a loader slasher delimber was the ticket. Since 90% of the work and saw related danger is in limbing and bucking..

THEN I thought some more...and now I have come to my final solution...Almost certain of it.
I intend to buy a leveling machine with a fixed head processor...preferably a Quadco 5660 head. This will allow me the option of doing "true" cut to length, cut and bunch limbed tree-length for the grapple skidder, or cut and bunched whole tree for chipping if need be....and then be able to process & merchandise on the landing.

See, the one machine can do the job of 2 conventional whole tree logging machines for less than the cost of the 2...with less fuel, and no need of an extra man.
I will no longer be at the mercy of the weather, either.
The Quadco website has several 5660 videos that helped me make my decision..
Mind you, you can take off the big leader limbs of big hardwoods with this saw..when the delimber knives can't. And there's always the old husky saw if the machine does break and I need to keep putting out wood.

So, consider other options if you have the $15K or whatever on hand...sometimes it's better to spend some money up front..you want to be able to move wood, not work on stuff or make due with old stuff..

As for what you can work for by the C&T...you want to not only cover expenses- and there's a lot of those- and not just make a living after that...you want to ALSO make a PROFIT to bank.
If you can't put at least $200 a week aside to have on hand for breakdowns, weather delays, sickness, and reinvestment into the business...then keep the job you have. And remember, healthcare is a big concern...

 

[KYLogger]

I am in the Appalachain mtns ( we calls em' hills around here) in E. Ky. Alot of the stuff we log is steep as a cows face so this is and always will be dozer and cable skidder country (though I could make a killing with a yarder and a good crew, there is lots of potential here for that imo) The only reason I am even considering this job is that it would be a supplement to the jobs I already have lined up until I have enough under contrace that I can keep myself busy full time. I know it's not going to be as profitible as me logging it and marketing it but it should make some good connections for me, and like I said it's right next to the house!!! Oh yeah......did I mention it's a blowdown site from the "little" tornado that swep through here. No worries it's all up rooted not twisted or snapped off.

Now the replies should get interesting. LOL

Tom

 

[Oldtimer]

I'd want at least $150 per thousand for logs if I were cutting hardwood on steep ground with a dozer. Speaking just for me, with the way things are here. That's $525 per 3,500 board foot tri-axle straight job log truck load.
That would be cut, skid, saw up to correct grade & requirement. And that would also be only if I could make a load a day go out. I'd want more if I had 2 days in a load of wood.
Pulp & firewood I'd want $300 a load (9 cord).

You'll make more happen working together (2 men) than separate with one on each machine.
The best chopper / saw hand should do that, and both should be hitching up in the woods- one tosses chains and pulls the cable, the other drags the cable to the trees and sets the chains.
Go light and go often. No money to be found wasting time on a big hitch. Waste of time and money. If 2 come easy, and 3 comes with some effort, go with 2. Don't waste time on the landing with pushing up. Drop and run until the landing area is too full for another hitch. Then both of you saw up...myself, I run the tape and my man saws. I stay one log ahead, deciding and measuring.
Then saw up and or deck wood out of the way with the grapple so you have room, and repeat.

You prolly will have better luck hot-yarding with the dozer for most of the day, or even for a few days, then yarding it out with the skidder. Not to try and tell you what you already know, just saying what I know to be true here.

 

[Samlock]

Well, I had several cases before I had difficulty putting a price tag on a job I don't know much about. I've found it best to play it straight and say: "Look, I don't know enough to give you any price. Would you tell me what this work is worth to you and what kind of money are you willing to pay me to get it done?"

That's usually a hit from behind. Element of surprise. A man can't control his reactions if he's not prepared. If the guy touches his earlobe before giving you his answer, walk away. A straight player most probably will take an involuntary glance over your shoulder to make sure you are not hiding anything behind your back.

Poor advice, but that's what I'd do.

 

[parttime]

Hi Ky, I asked a couple of friends of mine that log for a living and one get $210 a thousand and the other gets $220. both said they were underpaided. I'm a few counties east of you in southern wv.. good luck

 

[Gologit]

First thing...

Figure out what it's going to cost you to run your equipment, what your actual costs are to get out there and log. If you don't know, beforehand, what it's costing you to do business it's impossible to know if you're keeping enough profit margin.

If you don't know your operating costs it's impossible to bid a job and know absolutely that you'll turn a profit.

If you don't know what your costs are you can work for quite awhile, losing money so slowly that you don't realize that you're going broke until it happens.

Logging is no different than any other business. All that book work and number crunching is a major PIA. But if you're going to be successful you have to do it. There is no other way.

 

[redprospector]

Figure out what it's going to cost you to run your equipment, what your actual costs are to get out there and log. If you don't know, beforehand, what it's costing you to do business it's impossible to know if you're keeping enough profit margin.

If you don't know your operating costs it's impossible to bid a job and know absolutely that you'll turn a profit.

If you don't know what your costs are you can work for quite awhile, losing money so slowly that you don't realize that you're going broke until it happens.

Logging is no different than any other business. All that book work and number crunching is a major PIA. But if you're going to be successful you have to do it. There is no other way.

This is the best advice I've seen in a long time.
If you don't know your operating costs, do some home work and get some estimates (educated guesses), Fuel consumption, oil changes, wear parts (undercairrage etc.), and whatever you do, don't forget to figure in replacement cost. It really doesn't matter what some one else will do the job for. If they're going broke you sure don't want to under bid them.
If I'm going to go broke, I'd rather do it fishing.

Andy

 

[hammerlogging]

This is the best advice I've seen in a long time.
If you don't know your operating costs, do some home work and get some estimates (educated guesses), Fuel consumption, oil changes, wear parts (undercairrage etc.), and whatever you do, don't forget to figure in replacement cost. It really doesn't matter what some one else will do the job for. If they're going broke you sure don't want to under bid them.
If I'm going to go broke, I'd rather do it fishing.

Andy

Giving new, or re-newed meaning to the old phrase, "cutting the #### out of your timber" every day. 'at a way red.

 

[bitzer]

My guess is the guy already has his $/mbf in mind for you. Whatever you do there is little wiggle room to make it work. Production is a different ballgame when expenses are on the line. Simple decisions will effect your long term and leave you kicking yourself in the ass. Rain-the enemy. I would nail down as many details as you can and then make sure you're going to keep wood in front of you for months/years to come if you go all in.

 

[Gologit]

My guess is the guy already has his $/mbf in mind for you. Whatever you do there is little wiggle room to make it work. Production is a different ballgame when expenses are on the line. Simple decisions will effect your long term and leave you kicking yourself in the ass. Rain-the enemy. I would nail down as many details as you can and then make sure you're going to keep wood in front of you for months/years to come if you go all in.

Yup. Planning, or trying to, is key.

 

[Humptulips]

I'll chime in here. Knowing what your costs are going to be is great. Where logging differs from a lot of other endeavors is knowing what kind of production you can expect. Expenses divided by 2 loads or 10 could be the difference between bankruptcy and rich. Doubt if you'll get to the rich end.
A world of difference in production in different areas too. An area you are unfamiliar with may present problems not always obvious.
I would suggest sniffing around to see what other similar logging operations are doing for production in the area and use that as a guide.

 

[KYLogger]

Just got to walk the boundary, all blow down as I think I stated........it's a mess. The current boundary I am in is also a blowdown site and also a mess. It's gonna be alot of work but I am pretty sure I can at least make 1 1/2 what I am making a week currently, after figuring all expenses. Timber is selling good around here right now. Obviously I would like to have enough timber to log myself, however seeing as I am attempting to start out I think it would be beneficial to make a little less dinero and get my name out etc......and still make more money than I am currently and hope to get to the position where I am not reliant on other loggers to log by the mbf......... I appreciate all the insight keep it coming!

Tom

 

[bitzer]

I've never worked a full blowdown patch, but it would seem like a can of worms. Hard to dig in. Production varying greatly. Basically you're cleaning up a mess. Yeah the woods down, but not laid out for production.

One other major consideration that may ring true more for others is who you've got to support at home. If its you by your lonesome, starving isn't so bad when the weather/machines aren't co-operating. A nervous wife and a bunch of kids at home can make things interesting.

Also as a rule of thumb your equipment will break down shortly after a long shut down.

 

[hammerlogging]

Also as a rule of thumb your equipment will break down shortly after a long shut down.

And thunder shook, and thus the word was spoken.

 

[Gologit]

Also as a rule of thumb your equipment will break down shortly after a long shut down.

True...but it also breaks down the day before you finish a job with another job on the books that has a firm start date.
When you don't have anything else to do, work on your machinery.


KYLogger...one of these days we'll have something cheerful to say, honest we will.

 

[bitzer]

True...but it also breaks down the day before you finish a job with another job on the books that has a firm start date.
When you don't have anything else to do, work on your machinery.


KYLogger...one of these days we'll have something cheerful to say, honest we will.

I forgot about that one too! The dreaded last day of the job. I cringe when the last day comes and I just tell myself I will be back tomorrow or next week. Its not until my machine is hauled and rolling on the next job that I feel better again. I once finished the last four turns with no spin on my grapple. I snapped a hose and didn't have the right fitting and didn't have the time to run for one. Rain was coming. I had to bang it into stuff to get it to turn and fish with it. Kind of like one of those claw games you see in bowling alleys. If I accidently tried to spin it a 10 ft hot stream of hydraulic fluid reminded me it was the last day of the job. Got er done anyhow. Lots of oily logs went to the mill that week.