Milled electricity poles

[Old Hilly]

Very wise, Eddy, very wise indeed.
I didn't mention that some of this stuff will enter your body via your skin (wear PVC gloves) or via your lungs (so wear a propper insecticide rated respirator, not one of those paper dust mask thingies). The heat of the exhaust from your saw and the heat caused by the chain cutting the wood is enough to sort-of activate whatever that was in the creosote (if it was creosote and not something nastier like PCP) and you get a fairly concentrated dose of whatever is in the wood.
Please take extreme care with this crap, you are a long time dead. I also have no idea if any of this stuff causes changes to DNA which could be carried over to your future offspring.
Cheery old ******* ain't I?
Take care, I wish you well.
Dennis.
PS. If you smoke, don't do it around this crap either. It just gets the fumes into your lungs just that little bit faster.

 

[Eddie39]

Hey Dennis its always good to hear things from people that know more about it than myself ,other wise how would we ever learn .I was wearing gloves ,sleeves .. Cheers

Eddie

 

[TraditionalTool]

Well Guys this thread has certainly raised some very interesting debates and discussions that's for sure ,and after reading through this thread i am of the view that .
I will not be using any kindling's made from poles to start a fire.

I will use those planks as shelves in the out house as i was going to have to use preservative anyway ..

And I ll never be milling any preserved poles again ,truth be told felt slightly ill after that one and had a strange metallic sort of taste in my mouth which only disappeared last night very weird ..

I absolutely agree it's best to stay away from it, just that no reason to jump off a bridge over milling it up. Pressure treated wood gives similar bad taste, and I've cut that up before for outside use. Always use a mask when working around that stuff. I would do the same with creosote. But it's really not worth bothering with if you can get clean wood, IMO.

 

[Old Hilly]

The only people that really know what went into that pole treatment are the chemists that cooked up the brew. I strongly suspect that there are some metalic salts in there, probably Copper because fungi hate the stuff, so that might have been the taste you got in your mouth.
I wouldn't panic over the amount of crap you ingested from cutting up that one log, it was probably a minute amount. It is when you ingest lots of minute amounts over time that is going to cause you problems. To be fore-warned is to be fore-armed.
Anyway, on the brighter side of things......You taking those old poles off the supply authority will save them lots of money bu not having to pay to dump them into landfill. They are, after all, hazardous waste! You did them a favour so perhaps you should ask them for a discount on your power bill next time around!!!!!:deadhorse:

Keep warm,
Dennis (the would-be comedian).

 

[TraditionalTool]

probably Copper because fungi hate the stuff

Speaking of which, have any of you ever used that Copper-Green solution to kill fungi and bacteria?

I had to use this when I bought my house for the home inspection. I had some wood outside that hadn't been treated, so it said I needed to apply this stuff.

This is some of the nastiest stuff in the world...I brushed it on the wood pergola in my entry, and it just ate up my clothes, I had to end up throwing the clothes away as they just kept deteriorating...this stuff is nasty...

Not thinking I was just brushing it and it was splattering on my shirt and pants unknowingly...

 

[BobL]

Coal tar creosote is the most widely used wood preservative in the world. It is a thick, oily liquid typically amber to black in colour. The American Wood Preservers' Association states that creosote "shall be a distillate derived entirely from tars produced from the carbonization of bituminous coal." Coal tar used for certain applications may be a mixture of coal tar distillate and coal tar. See, AWPA Standards

The prevailing use of creosote to preserve wooden utilities/telephone poles, railroad cross ties, switch ties and bridge timbers from decay. Coal tar products are also used in medicines to treat diseases such as psoriasis, and as animal and bird repellents, insecticides, animal dips, and fungicides. Some over the counter anti-dandruff shampoos contain coal tar solutions.

2005 mortality study of creosote workers found no evidence supporting an increased risk of cancer death, as a result of exposure to creosote. Based on the findings of the largest mortality study to date of workers employed in creosote wood treating plants, there is no evidence that employment at creosote wood-treating plants or exposure to creosote-based preservatives was associated with any significant mortality increase from either site-specific cancers or non-malignant diseases. The study consisted of 2,179 employees at eleven plants in the United States where wood was treated with creosote preservatives. Some workers began work in the 1940s to 1950s. The observation period of the study covered 1979- 2001. The average length of employment was 12.5 years. One third of the study subjects were employed for over 15 years.

The largest health effect of creosote is deaths caused by residential fires.

Looks like a copy and paste from wikipedia?
ie http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creosote
scroll down to, "Health effects of coal tar creosote"

 

[Old Hilly]

But Alan, it has the word "GREEN" right up there on the top of the label. That means it must be OK to use. Doesn't it????
I have used similar chemicals and I treat them with a great deal of respect. Anything that will kill a fungus and keep killing it's spores is bound to kill Humans, it will just take a bit longer..........
Dennis.

 

[TraditionalTool]

But Alan, it has the word "GREEN" right up there on the top of the label. That means it must be OK to use. Doesn't it????

No kidding...I bet the guys that produce the stuff never use it...lol

 

[Andrew96]

Oh...that's the key. I worked with a bunch of chemists....They made the chemicals we used in the plant. One day I asked them if they really were OK to use..you know...'really safe'. The only answer I got other than a smile was...."you don't see me using them". The chemists all seem to know which to keep a good distance from.

 

[rarefish383]

I just Googled creasote. There are 2 kinds, wood based and coal tar based. Wood based has been used in medacine in the past. Coal tar based is worse. It said coal tar based creasote "Probably" caused cancer. In studies on rats shaved ares were coated for several weeks and caused lessions. It also said workers in creasote production plants were studied and no effects were noted. In creasote work areas 2 parts per million in the breathing air was OK. Since the first used rail road tie became available people have been using them for retaining walls and garden beds and I have never heard of any ill effects. I have a friend that mills, on an old circular mill, power poles to build out buildings. They make the neetest colored wood. He may just be nuts. I would have no problem using those boards for shelves in out buildings. People have a tendancy to mix terms. Creasote poles are not the same as pressure treated wood, which is very dangerous to breath and be in contact with, Joe.

 

[rarefish383]

I went back to Google and another thread said Coal Tar Creasote was very hazardous to health. It said if you ate a lot it could cause stomach pain. If you got a lot on your skin it could cause a chemical burn. If you breathed a lot of it it could cause lung cancer. All in all, if you have ever read the hazardous effects of any thing in excess, the risks were minimal. I'd still use the shelves, Joe.

 

[TraditionalTool]

Oh...that's the key. I worked with a bunch of chemists....They made the chemicals we used in the plant. One day I asked them if they really were OK to use..you know...'really safe'. The only answer I got other than a smile was...."you don't see me using them". The chemists all seem to know which to keep a good distance from.

EXACTLY!

As a test, if anyone has any copper-green, put some on a rag and set it out in your backyard for a day or two...I bet it eats up the rag...

 

[ROOTSXROCKS]

Coal tar creosote is the most widely used wood preservative in the world. It is a thick, oily liquid typically amber to black in colour. The American Wood Preservers' Association states that creosote "shall be a distillate derived entirely from tars produced from the carbonization of bituminous coal." Coal tar used for certain applications may be a mixture of coal tar distillate and coal tar. See, AWPA Standards

The prevailing use of creosote to preserve wooden utilities/telephone poles, railroad cross ties, switch ties and bridge timbers from decay. Coal tar products are also used in medicines to treat diseases such as psoriasis, and as animal and bird repellents, insecticides, animal dips, and fungicides. Some over the counter anti-dandruff shampoos contain coal tar solutions.

2005 mortality study of creosote workers found no evidence supporting an increased risk of cancer death, as a result of exposure to creosote. Based on the findings of the largest mortality study to date of workers employed in creosote wood treating plants, there is no evidence that employment at creosote wood-treating plants or exposure to creosote-based preservatives was associated with any significant mortality increase from either site-specific cancers or non-malignant diseases. The study consisted of 2,179 employees at eleven plants in the United States where wood was treated with creosote preservatives. Some workers began work in the 1940s to 1950s. The observation period of the study covered 1979- 2001. The average length of employment was 12.5 years. One third of the study subjects were employed for over 15 years.

The largest health effect of creosote is deaths caused by residential fires.

Looks like a copy and paste from wikipedia?
ie http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creosote
scroll down to, "Health effects of coal tar creosote"

and whats your point?

I just Googled creasote. There are 2 kinds, wood based and coal tar based. Wood based has been used in medacine in the past. Coal tar based is worse. It said coal tar based creasote "Probably" caused cancer. In studies on rats shaved ares were coated for several weeks and caused lessions. It also said workers in creasote production plants were studied and no effects were noted. In creasote work areas 2 parts per million in the breathing air was OK. Since the first used rail road tie became available people have been using them for retaining walls and garden beds and I have never heard of any ill effects. I have a friend that mills, on an old circular mill, power poles to build out buildings. They make the neetest colored wood. He may just be nuts. I would have no problem using those boards for shelves in out buildings. People have a tendancy to mix terms. Creasote poles are not the same as pressure treated wood, which is very dangerous to breath and be in contact with, Joe.

yes I agree that's what I was I was trying to convey above when I posted the selection from the Wicki Article that Bob the detective called me out on .

 

[BobL]

and whats your point?

What I was trying to do increase the value of the information provided. Echoing info from a readily available source is more helpful if a link to the original source is provided so members can check it out in detail if they wish.

I didn't deliberately go out of my way to search for the source of the information, it just so happened that I was reading that Wiki entry about 5 seconds before I read your post. I'm sorry if the way I put it was on the pointed side, it must have been my teacher side coming out - where I ask students to expressing an opinion in their own words and they just copy stuff straight from the web. I try to convince them the value of any information is only as good as the origin or source of that information. ie direct knowledge, experience or testing, something they heard from someone else, urban myth, or just echoing another source. There's nothing wrong with any of these in certain contexts, as long as its stated or reasonably obvious.

By the way, just in case this is not obvious, this is just my opinion

 

[BlueRidgeMark]

Eddie, I'm no greenpeace treehugger or anything - Burning that chemical laced crap is just plain bad. You may get some cheap heat, everyone else has to breath it. Gives woodburners everywhere a bad name. I'm as cheep as they come, but I'd buy oil before I'd burn poles.

:agree2:

 

[olyman]

Hmmmmmm, probably not Creosote either. More likely to be something like PentaChloroPhenyle (PCP) or one of it's close relations. Seriously bad for your health. In amongst that liquid there will also be some fungicides, insectacides and other nasties that are guaranteed to be bad for your health.
If you breathe the fumes when you burn the wood you get a nasty mixture of God-knows-what, if you then bury the ash from that fire in a vegetable garden you stand a good chance of ingesting more of the same mixture.
If you cut the pole into lengths for posts tou expose untreated wood to the microbes in the ground and in a few years you will have a nice hollow post. The treated timber will be as good as the day it was made but the untreated wood will have been consumed by the critters in the soil. How do I know this?
I built a set of cattle yards with some treated poles. Now we have excelent Parrot nest sites in most of the posts. Thank heavens for quiet cattle!!!! And I used to work with an overhead line and pole inspector so I got to play with all that nasty crap, first hand.
Dennis.

so--i have a bunch of line poles--and want to shave them to square 8x8's--which may expose the untreated wood--sooooooo. what to do?? pour some cement in the bottom of hole--let dry,set pole on that,and pour cement around pole??? tell me--

 

[Old Hilly]

First off, don't square off the treated poles, use them as they are and if you need flats on the post for rails or something, cut them with a chainsaw and then treat the timber with either creosote or one of the green Copper based solutions. For the base of the post, paint it well with the same creosote or Copper solution. When you plant the post in the ground you can sit it on a concrete pad but don't totally encase the post in concrete. In general, posts and poles don't like having their feet wet all the time. Ram/compact the earth well as you back-fill the hole and when you get to within about 6" of the surface start pouring creosote or old sump oil into the hole as you add the dirt. Keep adding dirt until you are above the ground line, shape the dirt into a cone around the base of the post so that the water will shed away from the post, pour plenty of old oil around this cone to make it waterproof.
Next, you need to keep the weather out of the end-grain on the top of the post. You can do this by making a galvanised sheet steel cap for the post or you can keep pouring old sump oil ontothe top of the post untill it won't soak in any more. When I do an oilchange I usually leave the old oil filter to drain out on top of a post. That keeps things oiled nicely.
All of the above is what we do down here in OZ. We use hardwoods (Eucalypts) like Bloodwood, White mahogany, Ironbark, Tallowwood for our fencing. These are probably nothing like anything you have up there, except, perhaps Oak but even that I am not familiar with.
Many of our hardwoods are totally useless when in contact with the ground. One old bloke I worked with said that Flooded Gum would be starting to rot before you finished ramming the dirt into the hole. That was a slight exageration. They actually last a bit longer than it takes to finish the job and get paid. That same timber will last for years if kept off the ground and used as fence rails and gates. Funny stuff is our hardwood.
Hope this helped to confuse you just a little bit more than you were before I started.
Dennis.

 

[Mike Van]

so--i have a bunch of line poles--and want to shave them to square 8x8's--which may expose the untreated wood--sooooooo. what to do?? pour some cement in the bottom of hole--let dry,set pole on that,and pour cement around pole??? tell me--

Oly, I worked as a lineman for the power co. 35 years before I retired. I've set, pulled, sawed, drilled & climbed every pole type know here in New England. All the chemicals they put in these poles are bad, they stopped creosote poles here some 15 [or more] years ago. Went to CCA at .6 not the .4 you bought at HD. When it first came out, a guy from Koppers came to the area, he said "this stuff is great, it's so safe" Pretty soon, the warnings come out - Don't make picnic tables out of it, feed bunks, playgrounds, etc. Safe huh? I've sawn some on my bandmill, but won't anymore. The smell, the dust, it hangs for days. Untreated black locust will last just as long. Hilly's right about not sawing them square, if you don't have to. I've seen broken cracked ones with ant farms in them, the ants don't eat the wood like termites, they just dig it out to make nests. Unless you have some terrific load on the top of a pole, you don't need a concrete footing. None of the poles out online have concrete in the bottom of the hole. Some have 2000 lbs of equipment hanging on them too. The worst place for rot will be a few inches above & below ground level, it's damp & gets air too. Deep in the soil, no rot. We pulled poles that had been set 50 years with no butt rot. Years back we would give away pulled poles, then we had to put big stickers on them about how hazardous they were. Lastly, we couldn't give them away, they came back to the yard, got cut into 5 ft lengths, and went in a special dumpster. From there, I don't know but I think they got landfilled. When I made my kids playset & swings, I did it out of oak. It only had to last several years, they outgrew it, I burned it in the stove. Chemical wood sucks, I can't say it any simpler.

 

[olyman]

mike--i hear ya,cept---------i got these poles--and i want to build a fairly large pole shed. they are in good shape,i just want them squared--for square walls!!! thats why i was thinking of concrete base--and concrete around them--with a slight cone on top of concrete,so water runs off--ever price trated 8x8's??? their nutzzz!!!!! tops would be covered inside shed--or, concrete base pad---and put washed rock all the way to top of hole?? or would still get rot???

 

[trax]

Had a friend bring my a brand new power pole last year I sawed on the band mill and framed a deck at my cabin and used store bought decking over it. I wore long sleeves and a dust mask while milling.