Milling experience: is this normal ?

[NuggyBuggy]

After a few years of struggling to get my gear to work, yesterday I had my first truly successful milling session. I milled about 6 x 8' boards of 2' wide of what *I think* is white oak (see picture) with my Alaskan.

However, some of the threads I have read make me think that maybe something is still wrong with my setup. I see people commenting that winches are not able to pull their saw fast enough through cuts. With my setup, it's hard, grueling work and slow.

I'm using a Stihl 088 with a 36" bar, 8t sprocket and 3/8" Woodland Pro ripping chain. No auxiliary oiler. I don't have any pictures to show of my chain as it is all at the cottage. The logs have been on the ground for about 3-4 years, propped up on one side.

I figure it takes me about 10 minutes to go through an 8' board. This is pushing the saw about as hard as I can without it bogging down. I'm not getting chips but fine sawdust. The board is on a slight incline, and I have my brother on the other side of the mill helping to push.

The saw pulls itself to the wood strongly. It usually ends up on an angle, with the powerhead side farther along in the log than the nose end, i.e. the bar is not perpendicular to the length of the board.. My brother has to work hard to get the nose end as far in the cut as the powerhead. Almost all the pictures i've seen of milling with an Alaskan, both ends seem to be about perpendicular with the length of the log.

It's a little bit of work getting the saw in the cut in the first place, but once the whole bar is in the log, things move easier. I usually end up on my knees holding on to the saw handle and trigger, and using my body weight to pull the saw through the cut. My brother tries to push the nose through

For the first 3 or 4 feet, I make much better progress than last 4 feet. Everything just seems to move slower. I sharpen the chain by hand after every pass and make sure there's plenty of oil in the tank.

Are my experiences normal ? Like I said, it *seems* that people are milling much faster than I am - I understand some of it might be due to better sharpening practice, different wood species, etc.

I'm also a bit curious about why my saw seems to want to cut at an angle, whereas others seem to cut pretty much perpendicular to the log length.

Thanks everyone. Without the advice and encouragement I've received from so many here, I would never have come this far - and for a city guy like myself, that is a long way.

 

[Trx250r180]

How long has the log been drying ? When the logs are more freshly fell ,they mill easier for me ,hardwoods get pretty hard once dry ,a pass like that i can do in 1.5 to 2 min with a stihl 460 or 660 normally ,yes sawdust looking chips should come off the chain ,not Big chips like when cut/buck the ends of the log .

 

[MGoodwin]

I have a previous post showing me using a primitive winch. Unequivocally a fan of the winch. Pushing a mill through, to me, should be a last resort. If you can elevate one end and use gravity (advantage being not needing a winch). I like the winch because I dont need to elevate (for me I can use it anywhere without the logistical hassle of lifting).

As for the other stuff, do you notice significant dulling after each cut? Are the teeth even (if the chain isnt balanced, it will dive/climb)? And dry wood is much harder to cut than green. Hope this helps.

 

[kpantherpro]

Also if the logs have been down for awhile are you cutting 6-8" off each end this will dull your chain a lot, you should be getting nice course sawdust the whole way through, just sounds like your both working very hard to get through the log, which you shouldn't have to do. Is it a fairly fresh bar n chain? are you using full chisel or semi chisel chain? I noticed by the pic, it looks like your leaving the bark on, which could be hiding a lot of sand n dirt, very bad if using full chisel chain. Also I do suggest an oiler, I use one always and notice much better results, I won't use a winch(because I believe you lose touch with the milling process, and can create a lot of undue stress on the saw and components without realizing it.) but if you are I would definitely consider one, especially trying to force the saw through the log.

 

[Grande Dog]

Howdy,
When you're milling perpendicular to the log, you're attacking the wood grain at it's toughest point. When you lead with the powerhead, or tip it offer a better angle of attack to the wood grain. The more you lead with one end or the other the wood exhaust should turn from dust to chips to finally shreds, or what people refer to as noodles. Somewhere around chips, to shreds is going to be your fastest cutting. I always liked moving tip forward through the log. When you find the angle for the sweet-spot on your log, the mill will move considerably quicker than perpendicular.
Regards
Gregg

 

[BigOakAdot]

Sounds to me like you're in need of a aux oiler. I would definitely try and mill green wood too if at all possible.

The fact that the first 4' are quicker than the last 4', makes me think it's the chain dulling.

I found myself burning my chain up and taking way longer to make a pass on a big log before I got some extra oil on her.

Good luck

BOA

 

[mdavlee]

Anything over 28" I use an aux oiler.

 

[Trx250r180]

With ,050 ripping chain i had to use the aux oiler,with ,063 .404 with 32 inch bar it has not needed the aux oiler in softwoods .the .404 has more space in between the drive links so more oil travels in the bar groove.

 

[NuggyBuggy]

Thanks guys. I've learned a few things here, just like every time I log on.

I didn't realize dry wood was much harder than green - it was something my neighbour and I wondered about. That makes sense in explaining why it seems to be pretty hard to get the saw into the cut, but things being easier after that. I'm going to think about whether I'm willing to lose the 6" or so at each end.

The wood has been on the ground for about 4 years, that's how long it's taken me to actually be able to get stuff working long enough to mill for more than a few minutes (it's been a long journey).

I'll also be sure to remove the bark.

I guess I'm going to have to figure out how to drill that bar out for the aux oiler. I already bought the Granberg one but got worried when I read some stories about how hard those bars can be to drill.

Also, the point about it being harder to go perpendicular to the length makes a lot of sense. I just assumed that was the best way to attack it since every picture I see of a mill in action seems to show the mill perpendicular. It seems like my saw wants to be about 25 degrees from perpendicular, but at no angle do I see anything that closely resembles chips - it's all fine, fine dust. I probably ought to be wearing my respirator.

Sharpening, I'm not sure about. The chains and bar were pretty close to new when I started this. When I noticed things going slowly halfway through, I started sharpening the chain by hand on the saw after each pass. Things definitely go smoother just after I'm in the cut, then it does halfway through.

I have to say, though, after years of trying to get this working, it feels great to have a stack of slabs I milled in a day.

Thanks everyone who's helped me along this journey !!!

 

[SDB777]

How long has the log been drying ? When the logs are more freshly fell ,they mill easier for me ,hardwoods get pretty hard once dry ,a pass like that i can do in 1.5 to 2 min with a stihl 460 or 660 normally ,yes sawdust looking chips should come off the chain ,not Big chips like when cut/buck the ends of the log .

1-1/2 to 2 minutes for a 8' long 2' wide...seriously? I want to see a video, with a clock running(keeps the editing from happening) of this amazing feat!
Maybe on a manual mill bandsaw, by not a piece of oak.....


Scott (story time is over) B

 

[Trx250r180]

I cut cedar and doug fir it is way softer than dry oak,i can post vid tomorrow if neefed

 

[carhartted]

To drill the bar I use a drill press but turn it by hand. I have used two people in the past as well. One to keep pressure on the drill bit using the drill press handle and another to turn the chuck. A piece of round stock to fit in the chuck key hole to use as a cheater will make it easier to turn.

 

[Trx250r180]

Drill the bar tip not the bar ,start with a 1/8 bit then 3/16 then a 3/8 work from small to the final size,i used a cordless drill it worked fine.

Drill behind the sprocket area

 

[chuckwood]

I'll also be sure to remove the bark.

I guess I'm going to have to figure out how to drill that bar out for the aux oiler. I already bought the Granberg one but got worried when I read some stories about how hard those bars can be to drill.

Also, the point about it being harder to go perpendicular to the length makes a lot of sense. I just assumed that was the best way to attack it since every picture I see of a mill in action seems to show the mill perpendicular. It seems like my saw wants to be about 25 degrees from perpendicular, but at no angle do I see anything that closely resembles chips - it's all fine, fine dust. I probably ought to be wearing my respirator.

Sharpening, I'm not sure about. The chains and bar were pretty close to new when I started this. When I noticed things going slowly halfway through, I started sharpening the chain by hand on the saw after each pass. Things definitely go smoother just after I'm in the cut, then it does halfway through.

There's a lot of grit embedded in bark. If the log has been sitting next to the ground for a number of years, rain and wind will splash more grit into it. I noticed that my chains dulled much faster when I was cutting bark, so now I use two mills. After I get that first slab off the top of the log, I switch to my mini mill that has a different saw on it with a shorter bar. I screw on a 2x6 on the edge of the flat top of the log, and this two by has an aluminum track on it to guide the mini mill which saws in vertical position. I slice off both vertical sides of the log giving me a log or a cant that's square on three sides. Then I switch back over to my Alaskan mill and cut my boards. This way, when I'm slicing my boards, I'm not sawing through any bark anymore. This also saves me from the additional chores of having to cut off the bark edges of my boards later. If you already know what dimensions you want, you cut them quickly to size right there the first time.

You didn't specify if you were using milling chain. I've tried milling with regular chain and it didn't work well and was noticeably slower. You shouldn't have to resharpen after every board. I sharpen my chains on the job as I go along. I use a small electric dremel type sharpener made especially for saw chains, and it runs on twelve volts. I bring a small riding mower battery with me to power my sharpener, and I use diamond bits. I just barely touch up the edges of the cutters with the little grinder to bring them to max sharpness. It's a lot quicker to do that than mess around with hand filing. I sharpen the chains on the saw.

I do wear a good quality respirator nowadays. After a day of breathing exhaust and sawdust with no respirator, you'll be coughing and spitting a lot the next day. In my experience, drilling a bar will work best with a carbide bit. The next best choice will be cobalt bits that are more expensive than the carbide tipped bits.

Here's a pic of a Granberg mini mill at work. It's the easiest way to get the bark off of a log you are milling. And you can set it up so your lumber is cut to the width you want. You'll have to do this step anyway, might as well do it in the beginning and deal with the bark at the same time.

 

[john taliaferro]

Bark needs to go away , then get a DAF and sharpen as per Mr BOB in the stickies at the top of forums page .When you get the chain to cut try not to grin to big you get mouth full of sawdust .

 

[NuggyBuggy]

john taliaferro - DAF ?

I know BobL has commented on a picture of my ripping chain saying it didn't look optimal.

 

[Mandres]

Hey Nuggy, it sounds like your experience was very similar to mine. Your picture actually looks almost exactly like the tree I cut up. With my 660, 32" bar, semi-chisel filed at zero degrees, milling a 25" oak was really difficult and frustrating. I found too that the chain seemed dull by about halfway into each cut, even with a homebrew auxiliary oiler set up. Next time I'll try removing the bark first to see if that helps. Another thing I thought about is getting a metal detector. It's possible there was a piece of barbed wire or something causing problems.

I highly recommend picking up one of the cheap hand winches from Tractor Supply and mounting it to the Alaskan. With paracord in the winch it gives a very nice, even pull with no effort at all. That saved my back a lot of anguish.

 

[Grande Dog]

Howdy,
Ripping chain sharpening is a little different from standard besides angles. The more you move towards 0 degrees on the top plate, the lower the file needs to be in the tooth. If you use the same formula as standard chain an leave 20% of the file above the tooth, you'll end up with to blunt of an edge on the top plate. If you're using a bench mounted grinder, you need to get the whole top plate of the tooth onto the side of the wheel. This will put a straight chisel type edge on the top plate of the tooth. It does require shaping the wheel slightly different than normal. If you were to use the normal shape, you wouldn't be able to get the whole top plate onto the side of the wheel without grinding into the frame of the chain. First you need to dress the wheel half round like you normally would. Then tilt the head as far as it will go. Now lay your dressing brick on the chain guides, and introduce the wheel to the brick. This will relieve the bottom of the wheel allowing to move deeper into the tooth without hitting the frame.
Regards
Gregg

 

[BobL]

I figure it takes me about 10 minutes to go through an 8' board. This is pushing the saw about as hard as I can without it bogging down. I'm not getting chips but fine sawdust. The board is on a slight incline, and I have my brother on the other side of the mill helping to push. .

Thats the sort of cutting speed I would expect in wood that twice as hard as white oak.
There should be no need for two people to push on 2ft wide cuts so it sounds like you still have a chain issue.

When you're milling perpendicular to the log, you're attacking the wood grain at it's toughest point. When you lead with the powerhead, or tip it offer a better angle of attack to the wood grain. The more you lead with one end or the other the wood exhaust should turn from dust to chips to finally shreds, or what people refer to as noodles. Somewhere around chips, to shreds is going to be your fastest cutting.

The extent to which angling the bar on a CSM reduces the load on a powerhead is based on the cutting length remains the same.
However, it doesn't - when the bar is angled to the log the cutting length increases which then places load back on the power head almost to the same extent as any gains obtained in angling the cut.
The increase in cutting length is dependent on the inverse cosine of the angle of the bar to the log, for example, angling the cut to 30º increases the cutting length by 15% and to 45º increases the cutting length by ~40%
Any sort of significant gain in cutting speeds require angles of >60º which then means a much longer bar is needed cut across a 2X wider cut .
Folks think angling the cut is faster mainly because for the first few seconds of an cut because the saw is not cutting full width wood.
If a full width slightly angled cut is maintained down a log the the differences in cutting time (compared to perpendicular cuts) are difficult to measure.

 

[NuggyBuggy]

Howdy,
Ripping chain sharpening is a little different from standard besides angles. The more you move towards 0 degrees on the top plate, the lower the file needs to be in the tooth. If you use the same formula as standard chain an leave 20% of the file above the tooth, you'll end up with to blunt of an edge on the top plate. If you're using a bench mounted grinder, you need to get the whole top plate of the tooth onto the side of the wheel. This will put a straight chisel type edge on the top plate of the tooth. It does require shaping the wheel slightly different than normal. If you were to use the normal shape, you wouldn't be able to get the whole top plate onto the side of the wheel without grinding into the frame of the chain. First you need to dress the wheel half round like you normally would. Then tilt the head as far as it will go. Now lay your dressing brick on the chain guides, and introduce the wheel to the brick. This will relieve the bottom of the wheel allowing to move deeper into the tooth without hitting the frame.
Regards
Gregg

I realized with this thread that I need to nail down the sharpening end of this so I I finally dragged out the sharpener/grinder I bought a few years back and need to figure this out.

First thing I learned while studying my grinder is that I'm gonna need to learn how to dress a wheel. I think you're addressing this here - do you do this by hand ?

I studied the movement of the wheel and the geometry of wheel/gullet and wasn't sure about how to, for instance, get the same configuration as the chain I have now. Do you need to redress for different types of chain ?

Is there a sharpening-with-grinder-for-dummies tutorial out there ?