Mill's and Molding Machines?

[cunrya]

I've done some more thinking in the past couple of weeks and decided to spring for the Mill and Molding machine and proceed with setting up shop. (posted price disparities among bids previously we talked about this idea there) Anyway, got my Lucas video from Bailey's this weekend. Looks like an Impressive little machine. Not sure how it would work on ground that is a little off level, or the mud and slop we got around here. Timber in the low ground will have to be milled on site as the logs are very large and Skidder would get burried in the slop, so the portability factor is great compared to a Woodmizer. I like the idea of a circular blade, looks like less handling of the lumber than with the bandsaws. So has anybody used one, or seen one in use? Opinions and feedback greatly appreciated.

Secondly, what type of molding machines are any of the mills you work with using? Again if anyone has any experience or feedback on a particular model let me know. Might be some very good ones out there I'm not aware of. Right now I'm looking at the PH260 Bailey's offers. Looks like a quality machine and offered in single phase.

Lastly, Kiln Plans anyone? I heat the house and shop with a central boiler and plan to use it for the kiln too. So if anyone knows of, or has used a setup like this I'd love to know about it.

I know there are alot of ideas out there, and I've searched the forum on these subjects. Just wanted to get the pro's opinions, and see what is being widely used in other areas of the country. Around here the woodmizer is King, but for the cost, I'm not entirely sure it is the best.

 

[Al Smith]

You must be around the river because the terrain around Defiance isn't much differant than around here, generally speaking .I saw a Peterson swing mill in operation at the Nelsonville show,very impressive.
One factor with the swing mill is you can set it up over a big log,and slice and dice without having to turn it.This would have a definite advantage on say a 40" red oak.

 

[cunrya]

Hey a neighbor, yep down by the river. was looking at a lucas that seems similar to the peterson you were talking about. I think this would be the best option for me since I am down on the river, in the bottoms and tough terain (for this area anyway)

 

[bottlefed89]

I've been watching your posts about getting a mill, I am interested in seeing what you buy, wish I could afford to do the same. Sounds like you are gonna spend some $$. Have you considered something like one of these to save some $$??

http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-CHAINSAW-LU...556431798QQcategoryZ20791QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

It says right there in the add that you can cut hundreds of dollars of lumber for just pennies in gasoline. Seems like a better deal to me...


J/K

On edit, you should probably buy this one instead, it has some video of Jessica Simpson for some reason...

http://cgi.ebay.com/Chain-Saw-Chain...558017110QQcategoryZ26229QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

[Newfie]

Cunrya,

Just make sure you make your purchasing desicions beyond what you see in a Bailey's catalog. There is LOTS more out there.

 

[bottlefed89]

I agree, I've always been interested in small mills, and recently started looking at milling machines. I can't afford anything, but looking on the internet there are a lot more out there, I'd defenitely look around. My father owns a big bulk mailing company, and we used to ship brochures for timberking, they looked decent. I think there are several different brands in their price range. Seems like they have some relatively inexpensive entry level machines that I'd be happy with. I guess like anything it all depends on how seriously you want to go into it. Last year I was cutting some firewood from a guys property and he happened to have a timberking, he has some awesome looking lumber from it. He found it used. Just make sure you explore all your options.

 

[Onelick]

I'm with cunrya, I've been thinking about getting a Lucas along with the slabbing attachment. My unique position is that I don't need the business to survive on, since I'm a professional firefighter, I just need something parttime to help put the kids through college, and maybe a new motorcycle... My questions are: How do you know if there is a market in your area for a mill? or do you create a market? How do you set prices if you are the only swing blade mill around? Do you set prices by the bd ft, or by the time it takes to do the job, or a set price per job? What about insurance? WC or just liability? I've been toying around with the idea just like cunrya. The main selling point to the Lucas vs the band mills is that I can quartersaw without turning the log, which would help sell the lumber to the local woodworkers.

 

[trimmmed]

Cunrya

Make sure you look at the Petersen(sp) versus the Lucas.

 

[Newfie]

My questions are: How do you know if there is a market in your area for a mill? or do you create a market? How do you set prices if you are the only swing blade mill around? Do you set prices by the bd ft, or by the time it takes to do the job, or a set price per job? What about insurance? WC or just liability? I've been toying around with the idea just like cunrya. The main selling point to the Lucas vs the band mills is that I can quartersaw without turning the log, which would help sell the lumber to the local woodworkers.

Quartersawn lumber is only desired by most woodworkers if it is kiln dried(as any other lumber for that matter)

Pricing the work can differ. You want to cover your costs and make a nice profit but at the same time not screw the customer with hourly charges or screw yourself with custom cutting at a BF rate. A lot of sawyers will charge by the BF for most straightforward sawing projects and charge by the hour for more intricate work such as quartersawing. Another thing to consider in pricing your work in the beginning is the obvious fact that there will be really low production rates as you learn to operate the mill. You really can't expect to charge a customer 30-50 an hour and produce 30 or 40 BF. The more proficient you become the more money you will make charging by the BF.

As for a market, sure you can try and create one, but that usually can be a long slow process with lots of advertising costs. Ask around at local specialty lumber places or tool shops. That might give you some sort of an idea if a market exists and if it might already be saturated.

The key to making money in any business is to know what your income goals are and what your operating expenses will be. Then you can start to price accordingly. Knowing what your competition charges can be helpful but not always the best guideline, especially if he values himself too low or does shoddy work.

Some of the mill manufacturers can help with information about insurance but any good business insurance agent should be able to set you up with a liabilty policy and inland marine to cover losses to the mill.

 

[Onelick]

Thanks Mike. That's great info for me to think about. Like I said, I'm not trying to make a living at it, just add to what I already make. So I guess it would be better to make alot of baby steps and stay small for awhile. The route I was thinking about was to just charge a flat fee for cutting a log to the customer's spec's and leaving him the lumber. Since I don't have an outlet yet for green lumber I don't have anywhere to store it until I make enough money to buy a kiln. Then there's awhole bunch of other headaches with that yet. Like I need land to put all this on, since the zoning at my house won't let me do that. Then I need a building for the kiln, some kind of storage bldgs for the green lumber, someone to grade it, someone to sell the cured lumber.... it goes on and on. I think I'll start small since I only want to make enough to put the kids through college to start.
Thanks,
Onelick

 

[cunrya]

Thanks, for your input Newfie,

Very valed points, since I'm planning on starting with my own logs The charging while inexperienced issue should not be a problem. I am putting up a kiln, found a couple individuals using a central boiler like I have for the heat source, so got some good resources there. As for researching others mills, I have done a bunch of it the past couple weeks. And from the reviews I read The Lucas is the swing blade for me. Big band mills are great, bud mobility and ability to work in the mud, slop and areas that are dificult to extract logs is a must, unfortunatly this rules them out.

I'm not in a position where I need the income from this operation to survive, I have two other operations that basically run themselves at this point, and am looking at this as a new business line that will allow me the time to get my pheasant hunting preserve of the ground as well. And also will provide the lumber for the lodge and shooting range.

I believe if your going to take on an endevour like this you buy the best equipment you can that fullfills your current and realistic future needs. I see someone has suggested looking at chainsaw mills (do you realize the amount of lumber wasted in that process, as well as the time factor). Time, space and timber for the operation are all on my side. And compared to other new business lines I've looked at start up cost is very minimal. There are very few other business's that you can fully setup and get off the ground for under $40 Thousand.

 

[Billy_Bob]

Another thing to consider/think about is energy/electricity/natural gas costs.

Solar or other energy? (EPA?)

I heard of a small mill around here which moved from one area to another and their electric bill went way up to $10,000 a month. (They moved from an area which had a different electric company.)

Some utilities give different or reduced rates to specific businesses.

And with electricity, electric motors which run on "3 phase" electricity run more efficiently.

 

[cunrya]

Well, the lucas mill arrived a couple weeks ago, and am very impressed with the quality of lumber it produces. Have milled enough lumber to build the Kiln and Molding shop in the barn. Ordering the Kiln this morning, going with the Nile offered in Baily's there are a ton of options out there but it appears that this is the best bang for the buck, and won't have to go through the experimental stage as with a home built contraption. I am convinced that it is very likely that the savings of building my own system would be ate up in damaged/destroyed lumber during the process of experimenting with a home built kiln. Will be building the kiln, molding shop during the snowy weather this week. Moulding machine will be ordered roughly when the first load of lumber is dry.

Already have a bunch of work for the mill lined up, alot of people have seen it working in the barn lot and stopped to see if I'd do some work for them. No bulking at $25 set up fee, $1 a mile transport, and $.20 a bdft. Have comented that its more than the woodmizer guys, but the quality and ability to mill lesser quality logs is well worth the added cost. Don't know how much money can be made at this, but very sure I'll be able to keep busier than I planned.

 

[Billy_Bob]

...Already have a bunch of work for the mill lined up, alot of people have seen it working in the barn lot and stopped to see if I'd do some work for them...

That's fantastic. Business coming to you!

 

[cunrya]

Yea Billy Bob, was very happily surprised. Bought the mill primarily to use on my own lumber to start with, and then to mill purchased logs to keep the Kiln and Molding machine in business. Looks like the Mill might be able to produce some income on its own though, I'm thinking demand for it might go up a bit more when the Kiln gets up and running, don't know of any portable mill guys around here that offer Kiln services too. Don't plan on getting rich, but sure am having alot of fun so far. Looks like my new hobby is turning into a job though!