Need to vent

[treeman82]

Early last week I get a call from a friend, he looked at this monster ugly willow tree that he wasn't into, so he gave the people my number and said I was the one to talk with. I get a call from the people while I was on the phone with him. Set up an estimate for Saturday. Go over to check it out, the thing is BIG, and UGLY. I told the lady that the rough figure for the tree was somewhere around $5,000. If they wanted to go forward I would send them a formal proposal. I see the lady write down $5,000 and I immediately explained to her that it was a rough estimate, not a firm price. We spoke about grinding the stump as a part of the job, and also about a tree next door. When I initially went there they were talking about leaving this monster, 6' DBH 20' block of wood standing. I explained that if there is a crane on site anyways it would be foolish to leave that standing. So after a time BS'ing I left figuring that somebody else would go in there for ~$3,000 and that I wouldn't even have to put together a written estimate. Sunday morning I'm speaking with a friend who apparently had to go look at the same job. He told them the same thing, to call me, it's beyond what he wants to get involved with, but I stuck with they will get somebody else in there for ~$3,000. Sunday night I get an e-mail saying to go do the tree and the stump. No request for a formal proposal, just get it done. I sent them a formal proposal anyways, just to keep a record of things and so that there would be no suprises.... Including the stump and sales tax the price was $5,620. I gave a detailed payment structure and everything else that I said I would include.

Monday afternoon I get a call from her husband who was very irate. The deal is off because you raised the price from what you originally quoted. I asked what the problem was, and he said that I raised the price and then he hung up. I called back to try to work out the problem (I'd already scheduled the crane and log removal by this time). Offering that I could leave the stump grinding out to lower the price, or that I'd have to charge him for my time putting things together... it went to voicemail.

I get a more irate phone call at this point from the guy. He's insulting me, saying I told his wife X and that I should honor it... I informed him that I gave his wife a ballpark figure, nothing solid. He says I'm calling his wife an idiot. He's accusing me of ripping him off for adding sales tax. I said that if I had come up with a formal price of $4700 instead of a higher rate that we would not be having this conversation. He said I told his wife I'd do the stump for $100. I never said anything about that, he says that you can rent a grinder for $100 a day to get it done, that willow is soft wood, and he's seen stumps ground before. I said that for $100 a day you can get a grinder, but that you'll be there for a week. At some point I just said forget it, I will just call off my subs and send you a bill for $50 for wasting my time. He starts yelling at me more now saying he will never pay the bill and that if I take him to court he will see me there with his lawyer. He keeps going off on me, and I finally just hung up on him.

I get to the computer later on, and see an e-mail from his wife, fairly pleasant about it. I sent a polite return e-mail trying to semi smoothe things out and attaching a $100 invoice for cancellation. This afternoon I get a nasty response from her saying I was trying to rip them off.. that I said $5,000 for the price, which I did not.

I think I must speak a foreign language, what about "rough estimate" don't people understand?

 

[Timbit]

Early last week I get a call from a friend, he looked at this monster ugly willow tree that he wasn't into, so he gave the people my number and said I was the one to talk with. I get a call from the people while I was on the phone with him. Set up an estimate for Saturday. Go over to check it out, the thing is BIG, and UGLY. I told the lady that the rough figure for the tree was somewhere around $5,000. If they wanted to go forward I would send them a formal proposal. I see the lady write down $5,000 and I immediately explained to her that it was a rough estimate, not a firm price. We spoke about grinding the stump as a part of the job, and also about a tree next door. When I initially went there they were talking about leaving this monster, 6' DBH 20' block of wood standing. I explained that if there is a crane on site anyways it would be foolish to leave that standing. So after a time BS'ing I left figuring that somebody else would go in there for ~$3,000 and that I wouldn't even have to put together a written estimate. Sunday morning I'm speaking with a friend who apparently had to go look at the same job. He told them the same thing, to call me, it's beyond what he wants to get involved with, but I stuck with they will get somebody else in there for ~$3,000. Sunday night I get an e-mail saying to go do the tree and the stump. No request for a formal proposal, just get it done. I sent them a formal proposal anyways, just to keep a record of things and so that there would be no suprises.... Including the stump and sales tax the price was $5,620. I gave a detailed payment structure and everything else that I said I would include.

Monday afternoon I get a call from her husband who was very irate. The deal is off because you raised the price from what you originally quoted. I asked what the problem was, and he said that I raised the price and then he hung up. I called back to try to work out the problem (I'd already scheduled the crane and log removal by this time). Offering that I could leave the stump grinding out to lower the price, or that I'd have to charge him for my time putting things together... it went to voicemail.

I get a more irate phone call at this point from the guy. He's insulting me, saying I told his wife X and that I should honor it... I informed him that I gave his wife a ballpark figure, nothing solid. He says I'm calling his wife an idiot. He's accusing me of ripping him off for adding sales tax. I said that if I had come up with a formal price of $4700 instead of a higher rate that we would not be having this conversation. He said I told his wife I'd do the stump for $100. I never said anything about that, he says that you can rent a grinder for $100 a day to get it done, that willow is soft wood, and he's seen stumps ground before. I said that for $100 a day you can get a grinder, but that you'll be there for a week. At some point I just said forget it, I will just call off my subs and send you a bill for $50 for wasting my time. He starts yelling at me more now saying he will never pay the bill and that if I take him to court he will see me there with his lawyer. He keeps going off on me, and I finally just hung up on him.

I get to the computer later on, and see an e-mail from his wife, fairly pleasant about it. I sent a polite return e-mail trying to semi smoothe things out and attaching a $100 invoice for cancellation. This afternoon I get a nasty response from her saying I was trying to rip them off.. that I said $5,000 for the price, which I did not.

I think I must speak a foreign language, what about "rough estimate" don't people understand?

Beer was invented for days like that, have a couple cold ones brother and think for every client like that there are 10 nice ones. Be thankful you didn't get the gig. Just think what you may have gone through trying to collect the coin afterward and dealing with Jeckel and Hyde. :bang:

 

[Rudedog]

I just can't believe how stupid people can be. The irony of this is that all of the local tree guys referred them to you. They will never get that work done from someone competent. ####'em.

 

[corsair4360]

Customers

I work full time in the computer industry, and run into people like this all the time. Some people are always looking for ways to trap you, I run into them all the time. I just walk away and shake my head to them.

 

[Philbert]

Be thankful you didn't get the gig.

My thought exactly. You dodged a bullet. Your grief would have been multiplied exponentially if you had actually done the work.

Philbert

 

[treeman82]

Beer was invented for days like that, have a couple cold ones brother and think for every client like that there are 10 nice ones. Be thankful you didn't get the gig. Just think what you may have gone through trying to collect the coin afterward and dealing with Jeckel and Hyde. :bang:

Sadly I stopped drinking last summer. On the bright side I think my ratio of good clients to ####heads like this is far better than 10:1

 

[Rftreeman]

all I want to know is, did ya learn anything..........some people hear or see a figure and it sticks in their head and it doesn't matter what you tell them, they will refer to that figure every time...

when I go to bid work the first figure they read or hear is my formal proposal, bottom line, end of story....

 

[tree md]

Not trying to insult you or add insult to injury but personally, I never give a ball park price. When they get a price from me all the i's are dotted and the t's are crossed. They always get a formal, itemized quote from me, no ball park prices... Take that for what it's worth.

 

[ducaticorse]

I did a job for a street full of Asian's once with written estimates for all. I will never do that again unless they are at least first generation, or can pass a comprehension test issued by a certified language instructor. WHAT A ####ING NIGHTMARE. Not the same deal as you described, but it was certainly one of those days...

 

[imagineero]

all I want to know is, did ya learn anything..........some people hear or see a figure and it sticks in their head and it doesn't matter what you tell them, they will refer to that figure every time...

when I go to bid work the first figure they read or hear is my formal proposal, bottom line, end of story....

+1

I do give estimates over the phone for all trees though, it goes something like this;

"yes mam, it will be somewhere between $50 and $50,000. Now that's a lot, or a little depending on how you look at it."

If I'm doing a drive by and people ask for an estimate and I don't have the time to do a written, I always give a range, not a figure. This separates the wheat from the chaff pretty quickly, and saves me from wasting time. In the end most of my work is won or lost on having a good connection with the client though, not on price. As soon as I confirm that the range is within budget and they weren't wildly optimistic about costs, I go ahead and start building that relationship.

Shaun

 

[imagineero]

I did a job for a street full of Asian's once with written estimates for all. I will never do that again unless they are at least first generation, or can pass a comprehension test issued by a certified language instructor. WHAT A ####ING NIGHTMARE. Not the same deal as you described, but it was certainly one of those days...

A lot of my business is asian, and I find that they generally bargain tough up front, but once you agree on a price and do the work they are good payers (better than white folks!). To stop people lowballing me I usually will give a verbal price only, and when they decide to go ahead I do a contract which is very simple, and plain english. It specifies which trees will be worked on, with a diagram of the yard and I put marker paint or tape on the trees too, what work will be done (removal or prune etc), if there will be grinding, whether wood will be left or removed etc.

It also specifies whether I will be cleaning the yard, and what is covered by my insurance (major damage to property, concrete etc) and what is not (minor damage to lawns, minor damage to other trees/plants in the area and undisclosed pipes when grinding). I think it's reasonable to give the client a fair understanding of what they are getting, this sort of knowledge is every day stuff for us, but many people will only use a tree service once in their life and have no idea how it all works.

Shaun

 

[climberjones]

For what its worth i say a number that is high enough that i can go down up to 500 leave it high enough that they can talk me down 500 if need be and that makes them think they really talked me down makes them feel real good!

 

[alanarbor]

I've found if you say it will be around (X) price they take it to mean exactly that, and will react unfavorably if it deviates above that number. If am giving people a verbal ball park proposal I usually give a range, say in your case "somewhere between 5 and 6 thousand"

Then they don't have an exact number fixed in their head.

 

[arbor pro]

For what its worth i say a number that is high enough that i can go down up to 500 leave it high enough that they can talk me down 500 if need be and that makes them think they really talked me down makes them feel real good!

Unless a consult with a crane operator is necessary, my proposal is always given in writing the first time I meet with the client. If a consult is necessary, I'll do what you did and tell them it's a rough estimate and follow up with a written quote.

I don't think you did anything wrong by added tax to the price you quoted. People have no problem paying tax on tangable items they purchase but sometimes they like to throw a fit when it's added to a service item.

Clents that act that way are better left alone. Unless you're broke, why would you want to bother with someone like that...

aP

 

[ducaticorse]

A lot of my business is asian, and I find that they generally bargain tough up front, but once you agree on a price and do the work they are good payers (better than white folks!). To stop people lowballing me I usually will give a verbal price only, and when they decide to go ahead I do a contract which is very simple, and plain english. It specifies which trees will be worked on, with a diagram of the yard and I put marker paint or tape on the trees too, what work will be done (removal or prune etc), if there will be grinding, whether wood will be left or removed etc.

It also specifies whether I will be cleaning the yard, and what is covered by my insurance (major damage to property, concrete etc) and what is not (minor damage to lawns, minor damage to other trees/plants in the area and undisclosed pipes when grinding). I think it's reasonable to give the client a fair understanding of what they are getting, this sort of knowledge is every day stuff for us, but many people will only use a tree service once in their life and have no idea how it all works.

Shaun

I appreciate the work from the Asian community, don't get me wrong. I do what you do, outline everything. It's their interpretation of what I outline which comes into question when the job is done. That's my issue. That particular incident was an early one, also one that I have not encountered again.

 

[treeman82]

Unless a consult with a crane operator is necessary, my proposal is always given in writing the first time I meet with the client. If a consult is necessary, I'll do what you did and tell them it's a rough estimate and follow up with a written quote.

I don't think you did anything wrong by added tax to the price you quoted. People have no problem paying tax on tangable items they purchase but sometimes they like to throw a fit when it's added to a service item.

Clents that act that way are better left alone. Unless you're broke, why would you want to bother with someone like that...

aP

I have chicken scratch hand writing, so for me it's easier to write it up when I get home on the computer. In this particular case I felt that quoting roughly 5K was enough, and that they would find somebody else to do it for 3K+/- and that's all she wrote. Also earlier in the day I had picked up mulch from the place where I drop off material, they raised their rates $2 per yard... X 40 yards or more can be $100+ raise over prior going rates. Also I needed to look into trucking, because fuel just keeps going up... not to mention the crane company, are they raising their rates. I'm not about to make those calls standing in somebody's driveway.

 

[BC WetCoast]

I have chicken scratch hand writing, so for me it's easier to write it up when I get home on the computer. In this particular case I felt that quoting roughly 5K was enough, and that they would find somebody else to do it for 3K+/- and that's all she wrote. Also earlier in the day I had picked up mulch from the place where I drop off material, they raised their rates $2 per yard... X 40 yards or more can be $100+ raise over prior going rates. Also I needed to look into trucking, because fuel just keeps going up... not to mention the crane company, are they raising their rates. I'm not about to make those calls standing in somebody's driveway.

Then don't give them a quote right away. Tell them you need to clarify some pricing with the crane and that you will email them a quote that evening.

We do this all the time if there is more information we need to get to provide a proper quote.

As for this job, as others have stated, it sounds like it would have been one of those "Yea I got the job - Oh My God, now I have to do the work".

 

[treeman82]

I sent the bill the other night for $100 for cancellation. If the people don't pay it I fully intend to take them to court. Had the guy been nice about it, or given me a sob story I would say to heck with it, things just didn't work out for some reason. However because the guy was a prick, I'm not gonna let it go. It's a matter of principle.

 

[treevet]

I sent the bill the other night for $100 for cancellation. If the people don't pay it I fully intend to take them to court. Had the guy been nice about it, or given me a sob story I would say to heck with it, things just didn't work out for some reason. However because the guy was a prick, I'm not gonna let it go. It's a matter of principle.

Now with billing for the quote you are not only going to lose the job you are going to get huge bad will and rep. Did you tell them anything about billing for the bid? Nobody around this city ever gets paid for a simple removal bid. They may brag they do but I call bull$hit.

You were bragging up your $6k bid and sale on another thread. My guess is you had $6k in your head from the beginning and was trying to sneak up to that price after you "ballparked" the 5k bid. You said this was a half day job with the crano. Who is the one acting in bad faith here?

I absolutely never ballpark a bid. I consider that an attempt by the ho to get a low figure and trick you into sticking to it. I do most of my work for regulars by a firm verbal quote. If they want a written then that firm quote goes on a contr. form and if I don't get a signed copy back that does not constitute a contract.

Sounds like you (or I) could have literally sold that job for a fair price of $5k including the crane and grinding (leave the grindings) and you blew the sale of a good job.

 

[treeman82]

Now with billing for the quote you are not only going to lose the job you are going to get huge bad will and rep. Did you tell them anything about billing for the bid? Nobody around this city ever gets paid for a simple removal bid. They may brag they do but I call bull$hit.

You were bragging up your $6k bid and sale on another thread. My guess is you had $6k in your head from the beginning and was trying to sneak up to that price after you "ballparked" the 5k bid. You said this was a half day job with the crano. Who is the one acting in bad faith here?

I absolutely never ballpark a bid. I consider that an attempt by the ho to get a low figure and trick you into sticking to it. I do most of my work for regulars by a firm verbal quote. If they want a written then that firm quote goes on a contr. form and if I don't get a signed copy back that does not constitute a contract.

Sounds like you (or I) could have literally sold that job for a fair price of $5k including the crane and grinding (leave the grindings) and you blew the sale of a good job.

I've got it on paper from them to go ahead and do the job. This is not a bill for the estimate, it's a bill for the cancellation.

As to the 5 vs 6 on here, I said 6K rather than 5.6K and wrote down the other one as 2K vs. 2.6K. It all works out in the end in here.

My regulars just tell me to do things, and then I bring them the bill. When they want to know how much I tell them.