New guy with a question about bar length...

[pennywize]

I've been lurking around here for a while but this is my first post....

I don't know if I'm crazy or if I'm just not understanding something.
I've noticed a lot of people on AS recommend what I would consider to be small bars for large chainsaws. I read a thread once where someone was interested in buying a new MS440 and someone recommended a 20"-24" bar. My new 440 that I purchased in February came with a 32" bar and I have since upgraded to a 36" bar and chain, I have had no problems cutting anything with it yet. I also have an MS310 with a 24" bar and it cuts great too. I would think if you only need a 24" bar, buy a smaller saw instead of a $700 MS440. So whats the deal?? Maybe I'm just used to the west coast where we use big bars and wrap handles, or maybe there is really something I'm missing out on.

By the way the last few months I've learned a lot on AS by searching and reading many countless hours worth of threads, keep up the informative posting! I think it's a great site. Anyway, gotta go. Sorry about the long post.

 

[MasterBlaster]

It's a power thing.

 

[spacemule]

Running a 32" bar on a 440 is sort of like running a semi truck with a Geo Metro motor. Sure, it might work on the flatland, but it sure as heck isn't desireable, and you're not going to be hauling anything either. Also, hardwoods require a lot more power than softwood.

 

[Vernon Tull]

I've noticed the same as Pennywize. I prefer an 18" bar on my saws, but most of the guys around here recommend mega cc engines with 16" bars. A 16" bar has always felt too short and insufficient for me, and yet I don't cut very many large diameter trees. Any specific stats on what kind of power I'm losing going from the standard 16" to 18" bar?

 

[Stihl #1]

Just because a bar fits doesen't mean you should use it. Running a short bar, 18" or 20", on a MS 660 will allow it to over-rev, and very likely will fail the piston prematurely. I have seen it happen. Pennywize you are right that the saw size should match up with the bar length and size of wood being cut. On the other hand, my Vette had a 425 HP Rat motor, and would smoke the tires in every gear, which was also overkill. So maybe we want more HP, but just need to understand the price we pay may be in burned up tires or burned up pistons.

 

[jimbo1490]

Bars much bigger than 24" are darned inconvenient and clumsy to use. The make the saw very front heavy which adds to your work effort. Also a saw with a long bar will tip over if set on the ground so it has to be started in such a way so that you don't run the chain through the dirt. This may mean drop starting a big saw in some situations, not a beginner's best move. Run a big bar like 30" and up only if you must for the work at hand. Go back to 20-24" even on a bigger saw for all other jobs.

Just my $.02

Jimbo

 

[spacemule]

Just because a bar fits doesen't mean you should use it. Running a short bar, 18" or 20", on a MS 660 will allow it to over-rev, and very likely will fail the piston prematurely. I have seen it happen. Pennywize you are right that the saw size should match up with the bar length and size of wood being cut. On the other hand, my Vette had a 425 HP Rat motor, and would smoke the tires in every gear, which was also overkill. So maybe we want more HP, but just need to understand the price we pay may be in burned up tires or burned up pistons.

That's funny. I've got a Husky 394 that I run a 20" on and it's got several years and is still going strong. If you're over-revving your saw, bar length aint your problem.

IMO, the difference between 16" and 18" is not worth mentioning, unless you're using a really small saw.

 

[Ekka]

I run and 18" bar on my ms440

A 22" bar on my 046

A 25" bar on my 066

Couple of things, what are you cutting to get away with a 36" bar on a 440? I bet it isn't an Ironbark euc.

The other thing is try to pull a bar of greater than 22" out of a palm head when it gets compressed in the cut and your on spikes ... I measured this one out and my back's near busted with the tip of the 25" bar stuck in there with only and couple of inches to go ... so I use max 22" bar, preferring 18".

Weight and balance means a lot to tree climbers, lighter the better.

Speed also means a lot to pro's, so dawdling in a cut with a small engine and big bar is not as productive.

Even felling big trees where the trunk dia is greater than the bar length is no big deal for pro's. It happens a lot to me but think of it this way, with a 25" bar I can fell up to 50" dia trees no worries.

And finally, a lot less teeth to sharpen.

 

[woodshop]

I heartily agree with ekka and jimbo... rarely do I need more than a 20" bar on anything except my alaskan mill. My 365 came with a 28", and most of the time it just gets in the way. I will replace it with a 20" shortly. It makes the saw heavier, it unbalances the saw for 95% of sawing, and when I sit the saw down the end of the bar is alway on the ground. Plus, like ekka said... more teeth to sharpen. As for overrevving and burning up a piston because your bar is too short, nonsense. If you keep the saw in wood under power, and use common sense when the saw is NOT in wood... you will not over rev your saw, simiple as that. I suppose an inexperienced operator can over rev a saw repeatedly to where it is doing damage, and that would be easier with a large saw and small bar, but in my humble opinion an inexperienced person shouldn't be using a saw that powerful in the first place.

 

[pennywize]

Couple of things, what are you cutting to get away with a 36" bar on a 440? I bet it isn't an Ironbark euc.
Speed also means a lot to pro's, so dawdling in a cut with a small engine and big bar is not as productive.
Even felling big trees where the trunk dia is greater than the bar length is no big deal for pro's. It happens a lot to me but think of it this way, with a 25" bar I can fell up to 50" dia trees no worries.
And finally, a lot less teeth to sharpen.

I cut anything that needs cutting, madrone, fir, redwood, tan oak, pepperwood, whatever grows around here. I'm not professional and don't climb, I mostly cut firewood. The reason I got a bigger saw than my MS310 is so I could do ONE cut larger than 24" instead of having to cut twice to buck a tree. The last madrone I fell was 32" on the stump and it is much easier and more time efficient to do one cut than two, for me. I have considered putting my 24" bar on my MS440 to see how it cuts, but I have had no problems with the 36" and a SHARP chain.
I agree on sharpening time though, it kinda sucks sharpening over 6 feet of chain.

If it takes a MS440 to run a 20" bar It would take a MS44,000 to power a 72"+ bar to fall redwoods like my grandpa used to cut.
I'm not trying to be rude or defensive, but my 36" + MS440 works for me so I should be content.
Thanks for the replies. I'm begining to understand.

 

[treeclimber jul]

I am with ya on longer bars. I don't know if I cut big trees or what but I run a 32 on my 066. use to have 32 on the 440 but the 660 already had one so I switched to a 20" and I wish I had got a 24" instead As to making two cuts with a short bar, instead of one. According to my experience when the nose is out of the log the saw cuts faster. When the nose is in the log the chain has to cut down as well as back.

Just my thoughts on the subject

 

[Old Monkey]

I cut anything that needs cutting, madrone, fir, redwood, tan oak, pepperwood, whatever grows around here. I'm not professional and don't climb, I mostly cut firewood. The reason I got a bigger saw than my MS310 is so I could do ONE cut larger than 24" instead of having to cut twice to buck a tree. The last madrone I fell was 32" on the stump and it is much easier and more time efficient to do one cut than two, for me. I have considered putting my 24" bar on my MS440 to see how it cuts, but I have had no problems with the 36" and a SHARP chain.
I agree on sharpening time though, it kinda sucks sharpening over 6 feet of chain.

If it takes a MS440 to run a 20" bar It would take a MS44,000 to power a 72"+ bar to fall redwoods like my grandpa used to cut.
I'm not trying to be rude or defensive, but my 36" + MS440 works for me so I should be content.
Thanks for the replies. I'm begining to understand.

Hey Pennywize, are you using skip tooth chain on that 36" bar? A lot of time folks put full complement chains(cutters on every link) and that adds a lot of drag and a lot of time sharpening. In the Forest Service we used 044s with 32" bars and seldomly needed bigger out west. As the above posts illustrate there are a lot of variables to which bar size to use. Personally, I'm a tall guy and I prefer longer bars on saws, less stooping. My groundies run saws but can't sharpen very well, for them I prefer small bars with oh so much fewer teeth for me to sharpen. Keep on cutting.

 

[pennywize]

Hey Pennywize, are you using skip tooth chain on that 36" bar? A lot of time folks put full complement chains(cutters on every link) and that adds a lot of drag and a lot of time sharpening. In the Forest Service we used 044s with 32" bars and seldomly needed bigger out west. As the above posts illustrate there are a lot of variables to which bar size to use. Personally, I'm a tall guy and I prefer longer bars on saws, less stooping. My groundies run saws but can't sharpen very well, for them I prefer small bars with oh so much fewer teeth for me to sharpen. Keep on cutting.

I use full skip on all my saws, though I don't have anything smaller than 24" and I'm with you on the bending over to cut a limb on the ground. That gets old real quick. I've never used full comp chain, but I'm sure a 440 with a 36" would not do well with it, especially in the hard stuff. I knew I'd find the answers here! Thanks again to all who replied!

It does seem like an East Coast VS West Coast thing though....

 

[MacDaddy]

I dont run a bar smaller than 32 I only use short bars for racing Maybe they have shorter legs on the east coast so they can run short bars without bending over
STIHL#1 425hp vette is not over kill its just right

 

[MacDaddy]

think of it like this your 20 inch bar with full comp is equal to a 40 inch bar with skip Also it it one h3ll of alot safer cutting a big tree with the right bar

 

[Old Monkey]

I dont run a bar smaller than 32 I only use short bars for racing Maybe they have shorter legs on the east coast so they can run short bars without bending over
STIHL#1 425hp vette is not over kill its just right

Ah yes, shorter legs. I've heard that said about 'them.' This explains everything.

 

[Andyshine77]

I would agree that it is a East Coast VS West Coast thing. In no way could I see running a 440 with a 32" or 36" B&C in a big dry dead Rock Elm or Locust tree. A 440 simply would not have the power to pull the chain through the wood, In soft wood it would probably be OK. I run a 20" B&C on my 372, 24" on my EHP7900 and 18" on my 353.

 

[fishhuntcutwood]

Yup, West Coast thing. I run a 24" on my 361, and have caught flak on here off and on for it. Alot of guys say that saw can only handle a 18" or 20" bar. Well, it ran great for five tank fulls today on 24" timber and the bar buried. Ran fine, never bogged or slowed down. The wood does make a huge difference. I was in WRC, Doug Fir, white fir, and alder. Wouldn't of have the same results in oak or hickory. I've got a 24, 28 and 32" for my 460, but today, only needed the 24" on it. Running a 440 with a 32" isn't out of the question up in these parts either.

Jeff

 

[geofore]

Long bars

I cut anything that needs cutting, madrone, fir, redwood, tan oak, pepperwood, whatever grows around here. I'm not professional and don't climb, I mostly cut firewood. The reason I got a bigger saw than my MS310 is so I could do ONE cut larger than 24" instead of having to cut twice to buck a tree. The last madrone I fell was 32" on the stump and it is much easier and more time efficient to do one cut than two, for me. I have considered putting my 24" bar on my MS440 to see how it cuts, but I have had no problems with the 36" and a SHARP chain.
I agree on sharpening time though, it kinda sucks sharpening over 6 feet of chain.

If it takes a MS440 to run a 20" bar It would take a MS44,000 to power a 72"+ bar to fall redwoods like my grandpa used to cut.
I'm not trying to be rude or defensive, but my 36" + MS440 works for me so I should be content.
Thanks for the replies. I'm begining to understand.

Did you ever think of reaching over and cutting in 8"-10" in on the far side of the log then drawing the saw back to the top and finishing the cutting down through? You want the top of the bar to have somewhere to throw the chips and the tip to be out of the wood. It's not about how long your bar is it's all about do you know how to use it? By cutting in 8"-10" on the far side first you leave 22"-24" of wood to cut through on the down stroke. You don't need to make 2 seperate cuts. You need to work on style/technique. You'd be hard pressed to find anything 3' dia. a 20" bar couldn't handle/buck. They do it different out west eh?

 

[pennywize]

By cutting in 8"-10" on the far side first you leave 22"-24" of wood to cut through on the down stroke. You don't need to make 2 seperate cuts. You need to work on style/technique. They do it different out west eh?

I'm still young and have a lot to learn. I do need to work on technique, I just wish I had more time and more trees to cut. Hopefully this summer I'll be able to cut a lot. thanks again for the replies. and we do a lot of things different on the west coast