Newb training materials

[CATreeTops]

Hey guys,
I'm brand new and pushing forward with picking up with I need to start a business in quality, ethical tree work - light residential to build foundation from. Thanks for having me on board by the way. The knowledge here has been an invaluable resource for me as I browse and read.

I was hoping to get some feedback on a some training materials. I've been scanning wesspur and am considering the following titles and was hoping to see if these are good books/DVD's for where I'm at in the game (the beginning).

Books:
The Tree Climber’s Companion, 2nd Ed - $15
Fundamentals of General Tree Work -$40

DVD - one of these two (opinions would be helpful as the cost is pretty different between the two for some reason):
Working Climber DVD Series 2: Cutting and Rigging in the Tree - $62
Basic Training for Tree Climbers - $123

Thanks again for any help and I appreciate being able to be here and read from you all.
Regards,
Jason Barton

 

[rarefish383]

Welcome Jason, growing up around tree care I never read any how to books, so can't help you there. One of my favorite books on tree care was P. P. Pirone's Tree Maintenance. Another book that should be in every arborists truck is Insects That Feed on Trees and Shrubs, By Warren T. Johnson and Howard H. Lyon. Although it may be out dated by now.

Only since you said you were interseted in "ethical" tree care, that I mention, I'm very big on "Licensed and Insured". Tree care is literally an occupation where you need to start at the bottom and work your way up.

If you are interested in tree care and not just tree removal, I'd Google "ISA Study Guide". You are going to need more than a casual knowledge of Botany, Plant Pathology, Biology, Geology, Electicity, Law, etc.

In the forward to P. P. Pirone's book , L.H. Baily states, "The care of trees is a never ending obligation". Are you up to it?

Welcome to the world of Arboriculture, Joe.

 

[CATreeTops]

Joe,
Thanks for the reply. I think it's a noble profession and I will learn as much as I can to make the business the best it can be. That much I can promise. I'm doing a bid for my neighbor's 3 trees that have grown disproportionate to the size of the house... His goal and what he wants to hire is enough to remove about 50% of the trees. I can see already there are going to be challenges to get people to trust in doing the right thing.

I run another small business already and there too, when you're the expert (or at least know better), it can be a tough sell to get people to spend money on something they "intuitively" don't think is the right service for them. There are books on leadership and motivation too. lol

I have a lot to learn, but I'm ambitious with a strong sense of integrity and responsibility. Wish me luck, and I appreciate your feedback!
Jason

 

[tr33thri11s]

Joe,
I'm doing a bid for my neighbor's 3 trees that have grown disproportionate to the size of the house... His goal and what he wants to hire is enough to remove about 50% of the trees.
Jason

Are you going to cut half of the total trees on the property down, or are you going to cut half of the three trees off? This could be very hard on the health of the trees. Just looking for clarification.

 

[constantine]

Jason,

Welcome to AS and good luck in your chosen work. All the books and DVD's you mention are very good and well worth the money. You'll find that you go back to them again and again, learning something new each time. I'd get the basic DVD first. The other one is more advanced.

Just a couple words of advice - the Arborist business deals with trees, but any business is about people, especially your customers and employees. Be good to them and they will be good to you. When somebody calls asking about an estimate, call them back ASAP from your cell phone (when it is safe to do so if you are on a job). Take the time to explain to the customer what you plan to do and why you are doing. it. Get certified. Use only the best equipment. It may be more expensive to buy but it is the least expensive in the long run. Downtime and equipment failure costs money, so buy top of the line and take good care of your stuff. You won't be sorry. The same goes for PPE. Before you get that new saw or lowering device, make sure that your boots, helmet, gloves, chaps, and glasses are top of the line.

Never badmouth your competitors. Also, if somebody has a job you can't handle, reach out to another arborist in the area to have him help you for a piece of the compensation or hand it off to him. Competitors are just like anybody else. You'll get a rep as a stand-up guy and people will return your favors.

Also, don't bite off more than you can chew. If you're doing a takedown in a built-up area, sometimes a bucket truck is the only way to go. Don't risk doing a lousy job. As a true professional, people should never see your "average" work, only your best.

Don't borrow money. Work your way up to more and better vehicles and equipment. If you owe nobody, you will still be here when all the other guys have gone away.

Finally, if you really love what you're doing, it isn't work. People will see that and remember you for it.

 

[Mikecutstrees]

. When somebody calls asking about an estimate, call them back ASAP from your cell phone (when it is safe to do so if you are on a job). Take the time to explain to the customer what you plan to do and why you are doing. it. Get certified. Use only the best equipment. It may be more expensive to buy but it is the least expensive in the long run. Downtime and equipment failure costs money, so buy top of the line and take good care of your stuff. You won't be sorry. The same goes for PPE. Before you get that new saw or lowering device, make sure that your boots, helmet, gloves, chaps, and glasses are top of the line.

Don't borrow money. Work your way up to more and better vehicles and equipment. If you owe nobody, you will still be here when all the other guys have gone away.




I agree with a lot you have said, but disagree with a couple points above.

I think that being on the phone during a job is very unprofessional. If someone is paying for you to do a job then you should be concentrating on that job, not the next. Customers understand if you call them back later that evening. Unless it is an emergency.

Also having the best equipment is not always needed. Having clean, neat and properly functioning equipment is. I get compliments on my bucket truck a lot and it is 10 years old. But its neat, clean and works well. Besides a new owner will never be able to own the best without borrowing money.

Mike

 

[constantine]

I agree with a lot you have said, but disagree with a couple points above.

I think that being on the phone during a job is very unprofessional. If someone is paying for you to do a job then you should be concentrating on that job, not the next. Customers understand if you call them back later that evening. Unless it is an emergency.

Also having the best equipment is not always needed. Having clean, neat and properly functioning equipment is. I get compliments on my bucket truck a lot and it is 10 years old. But its neat, clean and works well. Besides a new owner will never be able to own the best without borrowing money.

Mike

Points well taken. I'm sorry that I was not clear in my original post. On any job, there are breaks in the work when a phone call can be returned. I agree with you that it is poor form to talk on the phone while work is in progress. Customers may understand if you call them back after business hours, but the customers pay our bills, so it is important to do everything you can for them.

Regarding equipment, you also make an excellent point. I would rather have a well maintained piece of high quality used equipment then a brand new item of lesser quality.

Thanks for calling my attention to these things. We are both right.

Greg

 

[CATreeTops]

Are you going to cut half of the total trees on the property down, or are you going to cut half of the three trees off? This could be very hard on the health of the trees. Just looking for clarification.

In these tract environments, the developers plant fast growing stubborn trees that in some cases grow to overtake the aesthetic view of the house and/or yard. His perspective is he doesn't care too much about the health of the tree then viewing it almost as a large weed that needs to be "cut way back". What I did is offer the perspective that that thinning and some perimeter pruning will reduce the liability of falling and make the tree a lot less present and that topping and removing large bulk often makes the tree come back worse looking and bulkier than before. It's hard to know what else to say, but to clarify yes, he wants about 50% of each tree's mass removed.

What I've thought of doing is pruning it the way I figure is best for the tree and the aesthetics of the yard and see if he likes the result. If not, I'll do purely what he envisions. At some point I imagine he may just want complete tree removal, but that's an assumption. It is true that a lot of these trees can be a nuisance since I don't think some of the species applied in bulk were chosen responsibly to begin with and would be expensive to completely remove.

 

[CATreeTops]

Jason,

Welcome to AS and good luck in your chosen work. All the books and DVD's you mention are very good and well worth the money. You'll find that you go back to them again and again, learning something new each time. I'd get the basic DVD first. The other one is more advanced.

Just a couple words of advice - the Arborist business deals with trees, but any business is about people, especially your customers and employees. Be good to them and they will be good to you. When somebody calls asking about an estimate, call them back ASAP from your cell phone (when it is safe to do so if you are on a job). Take the time to explain to the customer what you plan to do and why you are doing. it. Get certified. Use only the best equipment. It may be more expensive to buy but it is the least expensive in the long run. Downtime and equipment failure costs money, so buy top of the line and take good care of your stuff. You won't be sorry. The same goes for PPE. Before you get that new saw or lowering device, make sure that your boots, helmet, gloves, chaps, and glasses are top of the line.

Never badmouth your competitors. Also, if somebody has a job you can't handle, reach out to another arborist in the area to have him help you for a piece of the compensation or hand it off to him. Competitors are just like anybody else. You'll get a rep as a stand-up guy and people will return your favors.

Also, don't bite off more than you can chew. If you're doing a takedown in a built-up area, sometimes a bucket truck is the only way to go. Don't risk doing a lousy job. As a true professional, people should never see your "average" work, only your best.

Don't borrow money. Work your way up to more and better vehicles and equipment. If you owe nobody, you will still be here when all the other guys have gone away.

Finally, if you really love what you're doing, it isn't work. People will see that and remember you for it.

Thank you for the abundant feedback. A lot of chunks in there to digest. I did actually wind up buying the fundamentals DVD because I need help understanding the equipment I need to buy and thought that would give me better insight.

Funny you mention not going into debt. That's basically been my plan and generally is. It's nice to hear that this is what may make the difference between success and failure actually. lol. That's encouraging. For this business my aim is self employment and learning how to grow a good company, not necessarily getting a loan and hiring certified arborists and managers to prop things up. I'm excited to learn the hands-on ropes and build the company from scratch, and for that I don't need a loan I don't figure.

 

[rarefish383]

I'm 100% with the idea of staying out of dept if possible. Many new companies, especially in the building trades, of 10 years ago are gone. When the worked stopped the bills kept coming.

One thing I may deviate on is a certified or licensed person to help. When I was a baby I got very sick and the doctors told my parents the best enviroment for me was in Fla. Dad sold his business to send the rest of the family to Fla for a year. He knew a fellow that owned a DGS grocery store. All the tree guys used to eat lunch there and get him to cash checks. He aproached Dad about getting into the tree business. Dad used his license and the other guy bought the equipment. Dad wound up staying with him for 15 years before he went back in business for himself.

I'd do what ever it takes to get legal as fast as possible. You could probably contact a local university and offer a position to a new college grad that can pass the ISA test, for a decent price to you. Offer him or her a piece of the pie.

Getting some good advice here. Good luck, Joe.

 

[treeseer]

In these tract environments, the developers plant fast growing stubborn trees that in some cases grow to overtake the aesthetic view of the house and/or yard. His perspective is he doesn't care too much about the health of the tree then viewing it almost as a large weed that needs to be "cut way back". .

Without knowing the species and basic pruning info how will you be "pruning it the way I figure is best for the tree ..."??? Post a picture or two--all this business advice will not help you if your business is based on underinformed tree management.

 

[CATreeTops]

These are the three trees he wants reduced. I don't claim to be an expert, but the point is that his expertise is "cut these trees to half their height". I'll take the job and do what I can. Sorry for the photo on it's side. This mac drives me nuts with it's "helpful" software sometimes. lol

 

[constantine]

I'm 100% with the idea of staying out of dept if possible. Many new companies, especially in the building trades, of 10 years ago are gone. When the worked stopped the bills kept coming.

One thing I may deviate on is a certified or licensed person to help. When I was a baby I got very sick and the doctors told my parents the best enviroment for me was in Fla. Dad sold his business to send the rest of the family to Fla for a year. He knew a fellow that owned a DGS grocery store. All the tree guys used to eat lunch there and get him to cash checks. He aproached Dad about getting into the tree business. Dad used his license and the other guy bought the equipment. Dad wound up staying with him for 15 years before he went back in business for himself.

I'd do what ever it takes to get legal as fast as possible. You could probably contact a local university and offer a position to a new college grad that can pass the ISA test, for a decent price to you. Offer him or her a piece of the pie.

Getting some good advice here. Good luck, Joe.

Hi Joe,

Thanks for your comment. In my original post, when I said "Get certified.," I meant that Jason should take the ISA test himself. Last thing he needs to do is hire a person when he is just starting out and hasn't made much money.

You made a great point when you said "get legal as fast as possible." Jason needs to incorporate himself before he touches the first tree. With all the lawyers running around, getting sued is a real possibility. If you have a corporation, your home, car, bank account, and personal property are protected. I don't know about CA, but in Delaware if you are a resident you can set up your own corporation for about $100. Just fill in one form, write a check, send it to the State House, and you're done. Lot's of people think it's an expensive and complicated process, but it's not. Also, it could save your butt one day if somebody decides to sue you. It also has tax benefits, which Jason should discuss with somebody who's familiar with CA laws.

Once he gets "off the ground," so to speak, he can think about some insurance. Many clients will ask to see your Certificate of Insurance, and won't hire uninsured people to work on their property.

 

[constantine]

These are the three trees he wants reduced. I don't claim to be an expert, but the point is that his expertise is "cut these trees to half their height". I'll take the job and do what I can. Sorry for the photo on it's side. This mac drives me nuts with it's "helpful" software sometimes. lol

The tree in that first photo looks like it has had a long history of heavy "pruning" to keep it from encroaching on the property line (which I assume is to the right). Somebody kept whacking off anything that was growing in that direction and so the tree just naturally deviated to the left and in front of the house. It will be tough to reduce this one while maintaining a healthy tree. Do you have a pic from the other side? Also, you've got the possibility of property damage there. Gotta move those cars!!

The third photo looks like a more straightforward job. What do you plan to do there?

 

[CATreeTops]

Hi Joe,

Thanks for your comment. In my original post, when I said "Get certified.," I meant that Jason should take the ISA test himself. Last thing he needs to do is hire a person when he is just starting out and hasn't made much money.

You made a great point when you said "get legal as fast as possible." Jason needs to incorporate himself before he touches the first tree. With all the lawyers running around, getting sued is a real possibility. If you have a corporation, your home, car, bank account, and personal property are protected. I don't know about CA, but in Delaware if you are a resident you can set up your own corporation for about $100. Just fill in one form, write a check, send it to the State House, and you're done. Lot's of people think it's an expensive and complicated process, but it's not. Also, it could save your butt one day if somebody decides to sue you. It also has tax benefits, which Jason should discuss with somebody who's familiar with CA laws.

Once he gets "off the ground," so to speak, he can think about some insurance. Many clients will ask to see your Certificate of Insurance, and won't hire uninsured people to work on their property.

I own a sole proprietorship that turns out some play money, but this business will be a corporation. I will NOT do it in California if possible. Delaware or I might give Wyoming a shot. Texas is good with taxes... I have it on my list to find the best state for me too. Ca has awful tax problems with the abundance of spending it likes to do on your behalf. My sole prop costs me $108 a year. Last I checked it was $800 a year for a corp.

This job is for a coworker and neighbor, so I assume he at least won't sue me if I do his work, and I'll gain a reference from it hopefully.

 

[CATreeTops]

The tree in that first photo looks like it has had a long history of heavy "pruning" to keep it from encroaching on the property line (which I assume is to the right). Somebody kept whacking off anything that was growing in that direction and so the tree just naturally deviated to the left and in front of the house. It will be tough to reduce this one while maintaining a healthy tree. Do you have a pic from the other side? Also, you've got the possibility of property damage there. Gotta move those cars!!

The third photo looks like a more straightforward job. What do you plan to do there?

These are my armchair thoughts on what I'm considering:
1st tree - yea it's obvious how disliked that tree has been by how many iterations of aggressive cutting have occurred. He wants more of the same. My thinking is to try to sell him on thinning the center, and removal of the branches that hang over the cars and overall perimeter shaping. The good thing with such an ugly tree is I guess it can't get too much worse... I can take another pic and post it but don't have another handy now.

2nd tree - needs perimeter trimming to reduce the presence growing in front of the house. I'll have to look closer, but again as with the first, uniform thinning.

3rd tree - without the leaves it looks like a normal tree to me. It's a Birch. He wants it shorter and the lateral hanging branches removed to reduce likelihood of them falling off. he wants the height reduced by about 50% which seems excessive to me but again, I can try to sell him on less vertical cuts and more lateral and hopefully the tree will look nice when it grows leaves again instead of developing hyperactive shoots...

 

[constantine]

I own a sole proprietorship that turns out some play money, but this business will be a corporation. I will NOT do it in California if possible. Delaware or I might give Wyoming a shot. Texas is good with taxes... I have it on my list to find the best state for me too. Ca has awful tax problems with the abundance of spending it likes to do on your behalf. My sole prop costs me $108 a year. Last I checked it was $800 a year for a corp.

This job is for a coworker and neighbor, so I assume he at least won't sue me if I do his work, and I'll gain a reference from it hopefully.

To check out Delaware corporations, go to http://corp.delaware.gov/

The only thing you'll need is a Registered Agent, which is anybody with a street address in Delaware who receives any official documents from the Division of Corporations. There are many law firms that do this for $200 to $500 a year, but for another AS member, I'll do it for you for nothing.

I am the RA for a friend in Rhode Island who has a Delaware S-Corp, and it works well. Don't know anything about Texas or Wyoming. With a Subchapter S Corporation, the profits are taxed as ordinary income on your personal return. The good thing is that the S-Corp does not pay any taxes. You do jobs, make money, then spend what you need to on the business (including supplies, gas, advertising, new saws, etc.) and then you get taxed only on the profits. Not a bad deal. I've been doing it for almost 20 years now.

PM me if you want to do the Delaware deal after checking out all the states.
You'll probably need a business license to do business in CA, but that's the way it goes. BTW, Delaware Franchise Tax is $75 a year.

 

[CATreeTops]

I appreciate that offer! Of course I'd give you something to make the trouble not a headache. That would be the very least I could do. I'll update as things develop, and look for advice and opinions as I develop the basics and more.

Thanks all for your time!

 

[constantine]

I appreciate that offer! Of course I'd give you something to make the trouble not a headache. That would be the very least I could do. I'll update as things develop, and look for advice and opinions as I develop the basics and more.

Thanks all for your time!

You're very welcome. Anything to help a fellow businessman. As I've said about other things before:

"It's a necessary pleasure in this era of downers."

 

[af7850]

Jason:

Personally I am to the point where I'd sooner walk away than deal with a client who would demand service in conflict with my professional recommendations and nationally recognized industry standards. However, I can completely understand your reasons for seeing this through.

That said, if you complete the job the way you intend to, please post more pics before he decides to demand that you mutilate his trees. Also, if he insists on his original request, make him sign a release form explaining the hazards of tree topping, and when you bill him itemize your services as "Partial Removal". Tell him it's for your own protection.

By the way, I was exactly where you are today just several short years ago. If you devote yourself to high standards and integrity, you will be surprised at how quickly your business will flourish - regardless of the economy.

Best of luck.