Pace?

[treeman82]

What kind of pace do you guys set for the days most of the time? I am of course referring to the speed at which you and your crew members work. I am of the belief that; take your time, do good work, but don't stop working. I find that they can work longer, and do better quality work than if rushed. There are of course those times when you gotta say "hurry up, let's get done quick..."

What is your view on crew pace?

 

[Stumper]

A rushed pace is bad. fast and steady is great if maintainable. Slow and steady is okay-provided the slow part isn't overdone.

 

[tshanefreeman]

I am definitely one that believes that the pace of a job depends entirely on the job.

One thing that a owner/forman/groundman must keep in mind is that things are very different in the tree than they are on the ground. Even though it seems to be taking a long time to reposition or tie on a limb, doesn't mean that the climber is slow and being unefficient. You should never rush anyone, for this is when a rope might slip or a climber might cut himself/herself.

I have been in every situation.............groundie, climber, and owner. Therefore, I seem to have a greater appreciation for time, even though I still get frustrated and have to step back to take a breath to cool off!

Hopefully as I become older, I won't loose touch with realistic expectations.

 

[kf_tree]

don't start the day harder than you can finish it. but after saying that, chop chop hurry up!

since i was 19 i've either worked on commision or did my own thing. so i only work at one pace, fast and get things done. chop chop

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I've only got one pace, and it is not fast. I will plod along and get it done right. The few times I have tried to rush to get in under the weather is when I've done something stupid.

 

[TREETX]

It really depends on the pace. It is usually pretty fast because I am the kind of leader that sets the pace by giving others something to catch up to.

I am not like a conventional army officer barking orders to working underlings. Instead, I lead more like and Indian or a captain of an old Tx Ranger batallion. By that, I mean the fiercest, bravest, and quickest lead the pack. Ok theory but you work yourself to death.

At times I hate working my body do hard but I really think it is cleansing for the soul. From the gates of Dachau "Arbeit macht frei" - Work will make you free. Morbid, I know.

 

[Nickrosis]

I'm a crusher, especially on the tree crew. If you're a fairy out on the job, you may not make enough to be there the next year. It's a matter of constant motion (frequent breaks in heat/humidity). It's moving your feet a little faster when you're hauling brush.

It's having two slings so the climber can be tying one on while the groundie is pulling the other off the brush on the ground. It's having a big enough chipper to handle logs or having a loader to put them in the truck.

Jobs can be done quickly if you have a positive problem-solution attitude, a perpetual motion bend, and the equipment to be effective.

Nickrosis

 

[tshanefreeman]

I agree....................but bigger, meaning larger crews and more equipment, doesn't always translate into better.

Confused...........all I'm saying is that the more output an owner is required to make, whether this be on loan payments for an Altec Bucket Truck, a new 26" chipper, a remote-controlled stump-grinder or in the form of payroll and equipment rentals, the less he/she is going to take home at the end of the month.

* Yes it may take longer to work with a small crew..........
* Yes things may not look as impressive if you roll up on site with smaller equipment than the competition down the street........
* But in the end, even if a few hours later, the owner will be able to stand back and see a job well done and a bank account to prove it!

 

[Nickrosis]

Hey...that's your method, go with it!

My theory is having smaller crew sizes with highly experienced, certified personnel. Sure, their wages would be high, but you don't have to have 80 nummies running around, accomplishing half as much, half as well. I've seen businesses like that in my area, and I

when I see them. It's a disservice to the customer above all, and I enjoy the company of intelligent people....makes me feel like I might eventually become one, shortly before I die. That's what brings me out to these boards.

I like having a two person crew that can do it all themselves, plus (here's the honesty) I'm a gearhead.

Nickrosis

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

If all your doing is fine pruning then a small chipper and a truck is all the rolling stock you need. But if you end up busting logs till seven at night on a regular basis and dumping at 2 different locations, you will wear yourself out.

Shane being a startup operation can afford to do this, or not afford being highly menchanized. I know one operation in this are that has a 2 man crew and 5 trucks (including a Prentice) and a loader.

If you run your buisness so that you can make the payments, then it is the same as running it to make payroll.

 

[tshanefreeman]

In reference to Nickrosis reply:

Never was there anything mentioned about inexperienced/inefficient crews. My statement deals more with equipment like log loaders and huge chippers. Spend a fraction of the money and buy another ground saw, cut things slightly smaller, run them through your Vermeer 1250 or something similar, buck larger wood into smaller length to then be split and sold as firewood (get something from nothing), and still provide professionalism and quick reliable service to those purchasing your 'goods'.

Gear is cool, makes the workplace more efficient and safer, but it can also make or break you! That is at least when your starting off. Banks don't like to see a young enterpenuer with the overhead of a millionaire.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

As another thread has alluded, firewood sales for tree crews is a false economy. there is more seweat equity put into it then you recieve monitarily. If you are paying to have it done, then it may be a loss leader.

Like I said, for a startup these things seem like too much of an investment, but when you already have that bigger saw, and need to make a step up in production it seems like a bargin.

say the peice of 50k rolling stock costs you 950 a month on a six year lease, even with insurance cost that is less then you pay for one unskilled emplyee durring the same time frame. If that equipment can get you off the jobsite in one day, or get you on a another small job at the end of the day.

Another way to look at it is that even if with insurance your paying 1100 a month with the new whatever truck, you only need to make 226 per week more, on average, for it to pay for it's self. Sounds worth not busting up logs too me.

 

[tshanefreeman]

JPS, I checked out that other discussion...... http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5712&highlight=firewood ...... and what I can tell is that the big boys couldn't be bothered.

However, I think that spike-it summed it up best when he said "...fire wood is a good thing for a young guy to make a few bucks when there is no over head." Perhaps this is why I'm biased. I am the young guy trying to put my foot in the door of a competitive trade. Also I live in a relatively small community and can haul to a storing site without travelling for miles and wasting precious hours.

 

[TREETX]

JPS is speaking wisdom here. I would like to bring up an x factor which is an individual's tolerance for debt. People with a low debt tolerance are going to be more willing to do the long hours and kill themselves.

From the outside looking in, it is so clear. Talk to someone with an MBA. Full of great ideas and mathematical business models but it is different when it is your money and your neck on the line. You will find a LOW percentage of MBAs who own their own business. Everyone has their own comfort/acceptable risk.

You do not sell firewood. You sell splitting, storing, stacking, delivering. The cost of the wood is negligable.

 

[Nickrosis]

Shane,

I'm sorry if you took it that way. This comes sort of as a revelation to me... I thought for sure you were twice your age, but I believe your profile. I'm very impressed with your professionalism, and I look forward to sharing an industry with people like you in the future.

Back to my post, I was thinking of a company in particular that uses that nummy strategy, and I was not thinking of yours in any way. In fact, I figure(d) you've got a medium sized operation, around 3/4 million gross, and many years of experience owning a business. Is that the case? You sound like it. You also sound like you do not have 80 nummies running around.

For me, I'm a long ways from being a millionaire, and I'm about to assume a couple million dollars in debt. For the first ten years, I expect to make next-to-nothing while working 60-100 hours per week. If I can pay it off in 10 years, I will be a very happy man. The real satisfaction, though, would come from being with the trees and people and equipment everyday for the rest of my life. That is the perspective that I'm coming from.

Nickrosis

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Yup, I know people who escrow money for an equipment fund and will not buy till they have enough. Then they loan the money to the company.

I've got some cash pileing up. Trying to figure the peice of equipment most likely to earn me money with my clients. Non CDL truck with a log loader?

 

[tshanefreeman]

Nick,

In order for you and the other Arboristsite members to be able to know more about this Canadian, I thought I'd somewhat introduce myself beyond what my biography states.

I graduated from Minot State University-Bottineau Campus on May 11, 2002, with my Urban Forest Technologies degree and Brandon University thereafter with a 4-year BSC in Urban Forestry

I started my own business on May 13, 2002. This means that I've only been working on my own for 5 going on 6 months. But don't let this cloud your image of me.................I'm very serious when it comes to the fields of Arboriculture and Urban Forestry and as a result I decided to jump right in, instead of continuing to work for people that my morals/education clashed with. Was this the right thing to do.................ask me in a couple of years!

I started small................moreless a pickup, all my climbing gear (Bob Underwood, professor of Urban Forestry at MSU-B, has stated on more than one occasion that I have more gear than he's been able to accumulate at the college, right Bob?), and of course my saws. My first worker was my eighteen year old brother...............everything went ok, but sibblings can equal tension. I have the benefit of not having to haul my waste long distances. I can usually make a round trip to the nuisance grounds and back in approximately 1/2 hour. Therefore, I haven't broken down and bought a chipper yet..............but now that my name is spreading and I'm getting called to sub in other communities and travel farther away from home, I can see a box truck with lift and chipper in the very near future............pricing as we speak!

Business is really steady and with my decision to go back to school and finish my Landscape Design and Turfgrass Management Degrees, I am very stressed for time. Everything in my life revolves around commuting, which can make work very difficult. The reason why you find me on this site so often, is because I'm putting in time between classes..........before I embark off to work some more. My busy season is soon coming to a close as I'm faced with nightly frost signally the upcoming winter. So I'm simply trying to fit in as much as possible to enable me to bank for the winter.

I can't tell you yet what my gross is............it's just too early to tell, but what I can tell you are that things are going really well...... as well as what can be expected for just entering a new market. I have met several deadends, but like anything, with a little persistence and manuverability, they can be overcome.

A smart man once told me that you HAVE TO CHARGE ENOUGH TO NOT ONLY PAY YOUR EXPENSES, BUT ALSO TO TAKE SOME HOME. IF YOU DON'T...........WHAT'S THE POINT IN RUNNING YOUR OWN BUSINESS?

All that I can tell you Nick, is to not think you have to buy everything at once...........spread it out. Afterall, if you have all to goodies from the beginning you will become bored and begin looking for some new field that turns your crank!

 

[treeman82]

Shane, I believe that the debt Nick is referring to is that which will be acrued when he purchases his father's business.

When I started this thread, I was thinking about a couple of different types of work, ie; pruning shrubs, pruning trees, cabling, removals, mulching, etc.

My motto with ground crews is "make haste, but don't kill yourself either"

With regards to pruning shrubs / fertilizing shrubs / etc I am of the belief that take your time and do a good job, but don't stop every 5 minutes for a break.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I hate it when the new groundies lollygaga along with two small branches

But then I guess it depends on how much hjavea I been drinkin.

Outa my new Big Kuts travel mug

 

[City climber]

1 pace Fast

As I get paid a flat rate per day. I can work as fast as the ground crew can clean up, and be out till 7 or I can set my own pace and be done by 3 or 4