Please Help A New Climber Out With Basics!

[PicturePerfectLawns]

I'm going to keep this brief. 10 years of Landscaping, with approximately 20-30 tree jobs per year. Many were small, some were 50+ trees. I've read books and studied both arboriculture and tree care. However, I decided I enjoy tree work and want to take tree work from about 5% of the company to about 99% of the company. So to get series, that means making changes to insurance, learning to climb, and getting ISA Certification.

I'm business minded, obviously I have a short-term plan, long-term plan, and marketing plan, with written steps of how I'm going to achieve these goals. ISA Certification should be a cake walk from all the studying I've did and what field experience I have. However, I've been working off the ground for all of these years. Pole Saws, Chainsaws, Ladder with a lanyard.


The problem.

I'm a hands on type of learner. I learn best, by teaching myself in action. This is kind of hard to do with learning to climb, because you have always remember, safety before anything. Which slows down the learning process for me quite a bit. I have to calculate and recalculate every move I make until it's natural to me. I've tried watching videos on YouTube, but most are not clear or move to fast for me to soak the steps in.


So I'm here to ask you professionals for help if your willing to help a new guy with the basic climbing and safety.

I currently have:

A Desire To Learn
Professional Climbing Rope
A Saddle
(3) Mechanical Ascenders (2 hand, 1 foot)
Lanyard
6 ft. 10 mil rope
Throw Weights
Helmet

I still need throw line and decenders, which aren't a big deal right now. I want to take it a step at a time, I'm only going to the first two strong branches as I learn, where I can easily jump down.


Where I'm stumped:

I get my climbing line over the first branch. Obviously with saddle on, I attach foot descender on right rope, hand ascender on right rope, and hand ascender on left rope. I then attach my saddle to the climbing ascenders by attaching a 10 mil rope with locking carib. I know I also need a second connection, but like I said, I'm not going to but the first branch, so I'm trying to learn how to asscend using these mechanical ascenders.

1. So when I try to ascend, it seems as if the left over rope needs to be tied off. Do I need to tie this off to the tree or hook the ends to my saddle?

2. The only way I've found to be able to ascend is use the hand ascenders to lift up, while pulling weight off the foot ascender. Then pulling the slack out of the foot ascender (which is impossible for me to reach.) So how do I avoid having to pull on the line coming out of the ascender and going to the ground? Is this where the micropulley would come in handy?

I appreciate the patience for anyone willing to help!

 

[treesmith]

You need weight on the end of a rope to start a foot ascender, rope bag, groundie, couple of bricks...

Maybe I read it wrong but there seems to be some critical equipment missing from your list.

Look up ddrt on youtube, ascenders aren't the best for work positioning or doing anything other that ascending, you need a friction system - prusik, blakes, zigzag, whatever. Better yet, watch a climber in person...

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

 

[scheffa]

I'm with tree smith, something doesn't sounds right. Climbing drt both ends of the rope are attached to your harness, one end directly and the other indirectly through a prussic, zig zag etc. I don't use handled ascenders and never have seen them used so I'm not much help there, I do have a small foot ascender that I sometimes use with my prussic to take some pressure off my arms

 

[northmanlogging]

I'm no pro climber, but what it sounds like is that you're trying to use SRT gear for DDRT. Pick one or the other.

If you going to do the double rope thing, then tie one end to your saddle, and use some sort of friction device on the other end, works like a 2-1 pulley, kinda, but not really... use the ascenders on the "free" end, to pull your self up, leaving the tied end alone. Though from what I've seen with ddrt most folks just grab the rope and go, less gear.

For Single Rope, tie one end off to the base of the tree or a convenient neighboring tree, then attach everything to the climb side. You will wan't something to attach yourself to the climb line that is not an ascender, like a kroll, prusik, gri gri, multicender etc, its a long list because there are many options, but you need something besides the hand ascenders cause they have a nasty habit of coming loose.

Prusiks are cheap and easy and work very good, its essentially just a piece of special cord you wrap around the climb line in a certain way, so that it creates enough friction to hold your weight and then some, there are many versions of prusik knots, I'm particularly found of the VT or valdotian tress, with a micro pulley, its mostly self tending and fairly easy to tie, plus is holds good.

While we're on the subject of gear, if you plan on cutting things while in the air you're going to need some kind of lanyard or flip line, supposed to have 2 tie in points when ever cutting aloft.

Also eventually you're going to want to look into getting a set of spurs,

And most importantly, learn some proper knots, get a climbers knot book and practice them till you can tie them blindfolded, they will probably save your life someday. granny knots and overhands only get a guy so far.

 

[thetoolnut]

I'm going to keep this brief. 10 years of Landscaping, with approximately 20-30 tree jobs per year. Many were small, some were 50+ trees. I've read books and studied both arboriculture and tree care. However, I decided I enjoy tree work and want to take tree work from about 5% of the company to about 99% of the company. So to get series, that means making changes to insurance, learning to climb, and getting ISA Certification.

I'm business minded, obviously I have a short-term plan, long-term plan, and marketing plan, with written steps of how I'm going to achieve these goals. ISA Certification should be a cake walk from all the studying I've did and what field experience I have. However, I've been working off the ground for all of these years. Pole Saws, Chainsaws, Ladder with a lanyard.


The problem.

I'm a hands on type of learner. I learn best, by teaching myself in action. This is kind of hard to do with learning to climb, because you have always remember, safety before anything. Which slows down the learning process for me quite a bit. I have to calculate and recalculate every move I make until it's natural to me. I've tried watching videos on YouTube, but most are not clear or move to fast for me to soak the steps in.


So I'm here to ask you professionals for help if your willing to help a new guy with the basic climbing and safety.

I currently have:

A Desire To Learn
Professional Climbing Rope
A Saddle
(3) Mechanical Ascenders (2 hand, 1 foot)
Lanyard
6 ft. 10 mil rope
Throw Weights
Helmet

I still need throw line and decenders, which aren't a big deal right now. I want to take it a step at a time, I'm only going to the first two strong branches as I learn, where I can easily jump down.


Where I'm stumped:

I get my climbing line over the first branch. Obviously with saddle on, I attach foot descender on right rope, hand ascender on right rope, and hand ascender on left rope. I then attach my saddle to the climbing ascenders by attaching a 10 mil rope with locking carib. I know I also need a second connection, but like I said, I'm not going to but the first branch, so I'm trying to learn how to asscend using these mechanical ascenders.

1. So when I try to ascend, it seems as if the left over rope needs to be tied off. Do I need to tie this off to the tree or hook the ends to my saddle?

2. The only way I've found to be able to ascend is use the hand ascenders to lift up, while pulling weight off the foot ascender. Then pulling the slack out of the foot ascender (which is impossible for me to reach.) So how do I avoid having to pull on the line coming out of the ascender and going to the ground? Is this where the micropulley would come in handy?

I appreciate the patience for anyone willing to help!

A Year as a groundie with a good company for a start and start rec climbing at the Weekends with an experienced tree surgeon/Arborist. Basic climbing kit as follows,

Climbing Harness,
Three way spring loaded karabiners by six,
10mm Prussik loop by two,
Soft core lanyard 5m,
13mm 37/45m climbing line,
A second rope for emergencies,
Silky pruning saw,
Tool clips by three,
First aid kit for harness, (Israeli bandage plus celox gauze),
Locking knife (rescue type with a whistle),
Spikes,
Climbing helmet with visor and muffs,
One eye to eye hitch for distel knot on lanyard,
Petzl carry tools by two,
Cambium saver,
Three way spring loaded locking snap for Lanyard,
Steel core flipline 3m/5m,
Two throw bags 10oz and 14oz,
Throw line and cube,
Gloves, chainsaw boots, saw trousers and hi-viz shirt.

Stay away from srt, plus mechanical aids like ascenders and zig zags until you have gained some experience. Learn as many knots as possible and learn to tie them on the ground with your eyes closed. Learn to climb ddrt with a prussik loop or split tail first, master body thrusting and foot locking. Learn the blakes hitch, very handy if you get into trouble. Stuck rope etc and it will happen! Learn work positioning with your handsaw before even dreaming of using a top handle saw in a tree. The above list is by no means meant to be comprehensive and your kit will expand and develop as you become more accomplished. Climb safe.

 

[BC WetCoast]

You need a couple of books with pictures to help you through the process. The Climber's Companion by Jepsen is considered the best for teaching basic skills. I have found this as a bit torrent, but I'm not sure if its available as a torrent anymore.

One web site/You tube channel that is very good at demonstrating basic skills is the Climber's Companion, but there are others.

One of the things you need to decide is whether you want to focus on pruning or get into the removal game. Different skills, different equipment needs.

If you want to focus on pruning, read some books, such as Ed Gilman, on proper pruning. Don't take this personally, but most on here would agree that most landscapers are $hitty tree pruners.

 

[PicturePerfectLawns]

Wow, 24 hours I look in this forum and I have lots of responses. Seems like a great forum with lots of people willing to help.

First, let me clear some things up.

1. I agree, most landscapers do crappy pruning jobs. I've read my fair share of pruning articles and books, including the great one mentioned above. I think I have enough education in this area to pass the ISA. My main concern is the climbing, as I've been doing everything from ground and ladder.

2. As far as pruning in the tree, I've been in the Canopies for years with a "Top Handle Saw." However, I still like to carry a hand saw with me. And don't bust me, I know it was incredibly stupid without proper training and gear. Hence, the reason I really want to learn the ropes. I'm getting older and every fall might not be as forgiving as my first, so it's time to learn.

3. Northmanlogging, I already purchased a lanyard / flipline. Actually, bought two in two different lengths.

4. So as far as the methods, I have the blakes hitch and a few basic knots down. I do agree there are others I need to learn, but the Blakes Hitch didn't take me long to learn. I know how to get down on a blakes hitch if I'm stuck in a pinch. I'm really concerned about learning a more efficient way of getting up though, yet still safe. As for picking a style and an objective. I'm now leaning towards the double rope technique. Removals or Pruning? I love doing pruning jobs, but honestly, most of my work is removals. I pull of 1 or 2 prune jobs per week, but usually 4 days a week, we're clearing lots. Each lot usually consist of 10-20 Cedars or Oak's, depending on location.

5. Another question, what do you guys do with the wood? Store it and let it dry? Sell it as green? I'm not too big on Cedar, but I value Oak a lot. Almost to the point to I hate cutting them down for the builders, but money is money.

6. Final Question, I'm HIGHLY CONSIDERING the Petzl Zig-Zag. It seems almost very simple to learn on. I've actually talked to a few guys who said guys had no problems learning on them. I know they had an issue with them early one or two should I say, but I'm betting they have the kinks worked out on the third one by now. After watching the videos it seems very simple and straight forward, not to mention it allows you to ascend and descend.

Again, thanks to everyone who has taken the time to chip in! I look forward to talking to you guys more on the forum! If anyone wants to offer any advice on Chippers and what I should look for, I'd also appreciate that. We're looking into starting with a 12", but the only thing I can find in a reasonable price range to start out with are older ones, which appear to have car or tractor engines on them. I was at Vameer yesterday, and the guy quoted me 38k, which I can't rip at the moment after investing in a dump set-up.

 

[IyaMan]

Also consider what was mentioned about a groundsman supporting below, not just for managing ropes. Whether when just starting while learning or even once you have experience, its best for your safety not to be alone when off the ground.

 

[northmanlogging]

Once again, not an arborist,

But as for chippers get the biggest you can afford. But meanwhile you should be able to rent one now and again as needed.

Around here, the branches are quite small, so a 6" will get the job done, but a bigger chipper makes faster work, if I had the cash to blow on one I'd look at a 10" or even some of the 9"s, the six is ok and all but it takes some time to knaw on bigger sticks, and gets choked on crooked branches. (but hey its a rental, and its cheap so...)

As for brand I've got zero experience with any of the bandits, minimal and frankly less then optimal experience with a newer altec (feed rollers didn't like doug fir needles) but the Vermeer chippers have been sweet (ran a 12" that was just plain hungry, stuffing in tops and it would chew em up in a minute or less)

When it comes to the older chuck and duck chippers, I hear they are a wood eating monster, messed with a couple but never ran any, the Ferd 300 straight 6 that seems to be in most of em is a tank of a motor, and if you think about it it was standard equipment in half ton trucks... Most of these chuck and ducks are getting old though, and they haven't seen the best of maintenance.

For dealing with the wood, I'm just a dumb logger, so I sell it to the mill, what ever is left is fire wood, but I think most arborist and tree service folks try and sell the fire wood or just dump it at a local bio processing place, that chip it and compost... as for the chips, can't give em away fast enough.

One thing to keep in mind, and a big reason I don't like chipping my logging jobs, is that chippers suck a bunch of fuel, and chip trucks suck as much or more, plus tabs, tax and title, insurance and tonnage for the chip truck, stuff ads up quick like.

 

[PicturePerfectLawns]

llya man, good news is while learning the ropes I have someone there at all times. Day time I have someone working with me and evening or weekend practicing, I'm at home with family.

northernman, thanks for your advice and help. As for chippers, I have been open to a 9-10". However, I'm even more open to 12". Renting? I currently ren the chipper and at 178.00-$208. per day for just a 6" it's steep. It's not steep as if you can't make money off of it, don't get me wrong. But it's just an added expense. I've always been the buy everything in full and ow now thing kind of guy. I know it would be a wise investment. Saves many trips to the brush yard, lot's of gas, miles on the truck, time, and more. 6" will get you started here, but a 12" will make more money in my opinion.

I'm doing my set-up a little different then every Tree Service around here. I see Tree Services pull up with Chipper trucks, have to unload chipper, dump, and load back up. I'm putting a chipper on the back of a flatbed, with the feed on the side of the flatbed that would be needed the most. The chute will then blow into the 16 ft. dump trailer with high sides.

I'm in the process of buying property and building a home with some land to spare at the moment. After that goes through, I might start thinking more about selling the oak and mulch. I'm hoping I can grow this business to the point I had my previous companies I recently sold. I have a tight marketing plan, but I'm not going into full force for at least until the time it takes me to learn, expand my knowledge, learn safety, get insurance and business set-up, and earn ISA Certification. Once I have all of the above done, I'll start thinking about applying marketing tactics.

 

[northmanlogging]

renting does suck... I don't currently own a chipper and have no plans on buying one, since chipping is something I rarely get involved for my business, though I help a neighbor out far more often then I'd prefer with his tree service biz, (I play groundie on some of his tougher ones, or get roped into driving my dump truck for him)

especially from a certain national rental yard.... rhymes with shertz

But when you don't have the option of buying it comes in handy, got a local saw shop/rental yard here that is super awesome, chippers always have sharp knives and if you reserve it, its there.

So you plan on mounting the chipper on a truck? if so you might be able to get a pto driven version, most 3/4-1 ton trucks have a plate on the transmission or transfer case so you can run a pto just need the drive and linkage, the pto chippers are cheap!

 

[PicturePerfectLawns]

renting does suck... I don't currently own a chipper and have no plans on buying one, since chipping is something I rarely get involved for my business, though I help a neighbor out far more often then I'd prefer with his tree service biz, (I play groundie on some of his tougher ones, or get roped into driving my dump truck for him)

especially from a certain national rental yard.... rhymes with shertz

But when you don't have the option of buying it comes in handy, got a local saw shop/rental yard here that is super awesome, chippers always have sharp knives and if you reserve it, its there.

So you plan on mounting the chipper on a truck? if so you might be able to get a pto driven version, most 3/4-1 ton trucks have a plate on the transmission or transfer case so you can run a pto just need the drive and linkage, the pto chippers are cheap!

Well, renting isn't exactly all that bad under certain circumstances. For instance, a homeowner wants to remove a tree for themselves, renting a chipper might be worth while. Or if they want to aerate their lawn, once per year. That might be worthwhile. But you know hot it goes, if your in the business, you need the tools. That's great ya'll have a good rental place. We have lots of rental places here, but most of the equipment is abused here.

So I'm wanting to mount a chipper on a flat bed as I said. Reason being, I have a spare 3/4 ton work truck from the old business. In fact, it has a brand new engine and transmission in it. I have a brand new $10k dump trailer. So it would make since, to mount on the back of the truck and blow into the dump trailer. No un-hitching at the dump and so forth. Not to mention, I'm sure my 3/4 ton 2500 is much easier to find parts in stock for when something breaks then for instance a F550 or GMC 5500 Chip Truck.

 

[BC WetCoast]

You should do some research on the effectiveness of your proposed set up. I heard that Davey was putting together a similar setup, but never heard how it fared. There is a reason why that set up isn't readily seen around. You need to be sure that your truck can handle the chipper on it as well as towing the chip trailer.

In my opinion only having the feed on one side of the truck would be an extreme pain in the ass. The overall frustration would greatly outweigh the small amount of time needed to unhook and rehook up the chipper when you dump. This week alone I parked on both sides of the street (one facing the wrong way), backed into a driveway with narrow side access and backed up to a big pile left by another crew. I find having the chipper out the back gives you more flexibility.

For me the unhooking and rehooking a chipper is a small % of the time dumping. It's about an 1.25 hr turnaround from our office to the dump, including travel, dropping the chipper, lifting the boom, dumping and travel back.

I'm sure Austin is big enough that parts for a F550 are as readily available as a 3/4 ton.

 

[northmanlogging]

the parts for the bigger trucks are just as easy to find as the smaller trucks, since most of them share a lot of parts. about the only real difference other then the body, is the under carriage, and they are going to be eaton, spicer, or dana parts, all very common maybe just maybe some rockwells, the Ford's at least have the same motors as the regular trucks, sometimes the same transmissions, though those should be different, so all the bits that go wrong on a motor are going to be identical to those on a regular truck, chevy does the same thing, (and who really cares about dodge anyway...)

as for mounting the chipper on a flat bed... that is all up to you, but most of the jobs I've worked its been a back in only deal, no street parking, no easy access,
Plus with a trailer mount chipper you can leave the chipper parked back another truck up to it, and continue chipping as the first truck goes and dumps.

 

[TheJollyLogger]

I'm in Georgetown, PM me if you want to get together. And the flatbed mount is a bad idea...

 

[PicturePerfectLawns]

TheJollyLogger, I'd be interested in hearing what other ideas you have. I'm trying to come up with some ideas, before I worry about purchasing a chipper. Your in Georgetown? What kind of work do you do? Removals? Pruning? I was just in Georgetown on a job last week. I'd love to have lunch and talk sometime. Have you by chance used the Petzl Zig Zag? I just picked one up yesterday and it would be great to find someone around here who's used one.

Do you work by yourself or have a business partner? I had plans to go in business with a long time friend and we split everything 50/50 purchasing, etc. That might be falling through as he's not holding his weight.

 

[TheJollyLogger]

I'm retired from climbing at this point, but Id be happy to meet ya. Did it a lo ng time, maybe a day too long ..

 

[PicturePerfectLawns]

TheJollyLogger, congratulations on the retirement! I wish I could proudly say that, I have a long ways to go. I'm not sure there will be such thing as retirement when it's my time. I'd love to meet up with you sometime. Ill send you a pm and we can set something up. I'm sure you have some interesting stories and lots of great advice.

So northman and to everyone that was offering advice. I went and picked up the Petz'l ZigZag yesterday. I had to take a good road trip to get it as there was none in stock locally and I was impatient to try it out. Got home too late last night, but went at it today. All I can say is, WOW.

I watched videos for two days straight on the product, unboxed and read the instructions, grabbed the gear and went to the big tree out front. Took me about a solid hour before I got the hang of setting it up efficiently. (I did it over and over, until I got the hang of it.) Now it takes me less then 10 minutes, to set the throw line, pull the rope over, and hook up the Zig Zag.

Ascending, very simple. I just attached a hand ascender above the Zig Zag. I tethered off to both the hand ascender and Zig Zag. I felt so comfortable I went up pretty high, pretty fast. Coming back down was easier then ever. Other then unhooking the hand ascender, I simply pushed down on the button at the top of the Zig Zag and was down safely. It took me a minute to find the sweet spot when decending. I'm going to repeat for a few days, then move on to hooking up with the lanyard when in the tree, and moving the line to higher branches.

Overall, the Zig Zag was expensive for a very small piece of shiny metal. However, it made learning a breeze.

 

[northmanlogging]

its petzl, so its worth the money...

Somehow I don't think JollyLogger retired by choice... this is a very dangerous game yer wanting to get involved in, climbers (plural) die every year.

 

[crotchclimber]

Yep the ZigZag is pretty sweet, especially for removals when you're going up and down the tree a lot on spikes. Great how it almost self-tends. I don't own one yet but I often use my coworkers'. Of the six climbers at my company, four use the ZigZag. I still use the Hitchclimber system, mostly because it's midline attachable.