064 stihl
ArboristSite Member
Can any of you racers tell me what modifiers do to the tranfer ports to make power ?
Porting
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Crofter
Addicted to ArboristSite
A couple of days ago it was nitrous. If you really want to cut faster get a bigger saw. It is the cheapest way to go.
Do a search on Google on 2 cycle performance. Do some reading up on the theory of two stroke operation. I think it will answer a lot of your questions and bring you up to speed.
Frank
Do a search on Google on 2 cycle performance. Do some reading up on the theory of two stroke operation. I think it will answer a lot of your questions and bring you up to speed.
Frank
064 stihl
ArboristSite Member
Thanks for the info(not). Pretty bad i could'nt ask a question, thought maybe i would be able to get the answer easier, but i guess not.
I have to agree with Rocky, again. Porting, engine mods, shaping pistons, learning carburetion and exhuast- these things take years of trial and error before you really get good, even with all the books you can get your hands on. I started porting and building saws in 1995 and I'm still not that good yet, and I have 12 different books on two-cycle theory and internal combustion performance.
Go to the library and READ, READ, READ. If you were to ask one of our master builders for their secrets, even if they agreed to share them, it would take days of e-mails and talking on the phone, I'm not sure if a lot of guys have that kind of time.
Go to the library and READ, READ, READ. If you were to ask one of our master builders for their secrets, even if they agreed to share them, it would take days of e-mails and talking on the phone, I'm not sure if a lot of guys have that kind of time.
Dennis Cahoon
Addicted to ArboristSite
O64 The answer to your question is raise them and widen them,but the real guestion is to what degree. Dennis
064 stihl
ArboristSite Member
Sounds good. Maybe i'll keep my questions out of this forum and read more. Just tryin.
Striker
ArboristSite Operative
Keep trying and you eventually get the answers you want or don't want. While you ask your questions be studying what ever literature you can find on the subject. the more you learn the more specific your questions can be. You may only get one or two usable answers out of twenty replies to your question, but those two replies may be the key to your problem.
When people tell you to be carefull, that is the time to listen. When they are squawking back and forth at each other, pick out what is pertinant and let the rest breeze by.
Generally speaking, the people that post on this site are of above average intellegance. They tend to get tangled up in, and argue the the technical details. Why? Because opinions differ.
So take what you can learn from here, read all you can read, work with your uncle and others that are doing what you want to do.
Above all be safe and carefull. We don't want to here about you demise in the injuries and fatalities forum.
That said, go for the gusto!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jeff
When people tell you to be carefull, that is the time to listen. When they are squawking back and forth at each other, pick out what is pertinant and let the rest breeze by.
Generally speaking, the people that post on this site are of above average intellegance. They tend to get tangled up in, and argue the the technical details. Why? Because opinions differ.
So take what you can learn from here, read all you can read, work with your uncle and others that are doing what you want to do.
Above all be safe and carefull. We don't want to here about you demise in the injuries and fatalities forum.
That said, go for the gusto!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jeff
Search the backlog of posts on this site also, there's quite a bit of information that has already been covered in the last 2.5 years or so.
Ax-man
Addicted to ArboristSite
Got a question on power porting a saw.
Would one get the same service life from a ported saw compared to a plain Jane stock saw? Provided both saws were to recieve the same care and maintence.
The best engines that give the best performance, over the long run, are those that have been untouched and unaltered, but recieve good maintence. This is coming from a four- stroke, line of thinking. Would this statement hold true for 2 - strokes?
Before all you power ported saw buffs come down on me, I'm just asking this as a sort of a theory type question. I've got a few saws that need some major attention and have been toying with the idea of porting them myself.
The question I guess I'm trying to ask here is that if you increase one function of an engine, in this case air flow and carburation for increased power, does the mechanical parts of the engine suffer from this increase in power and shorten it's useful life over the long run. Assuming that these parts recieve no attention in regards to beefing up to compensate for the increase in power.
Would one get the same service life from a ported saw compared to a plain Jane stock saw? Provided both saws were to recieve the same care and maintence.
The best engines that give the best performance, over the long run, are those that have been untouched and unaltered, but recieve good maintence. This is coming from a four- stroke, line of thinking. Would this statement hold true for 2 - strokes?
Before all you power ported saw buffs come down on me, I'm just asking this as a sort of a theory type question. I've got a few saws that need some major attention and have been toying with the idea of porting them myself.
The question I guess I'm trying to ask here is that if you increase one function of an engine, in this case air flow and carburation for increased power, does the mechanical parts of the engine suffer from this increase in power and shorten it's useful life over the long run. Assuming that these parts recieve no attention in regards to beefing up to compensate for the increase in power.
Gypo Logger
Timber Baron
What blows me away about the naysayers for 2 cycle mods is, I think they believe that the saw will go into some uncontroled, self destructive mode. Like as if they didn't have any contol whatsoever over the rpm via the H setting. Can we not richen a saw so that is so blubbery rich that it almost wont fire anymore?
What are these people so afraid of? It's very hard to convince some people of a logical train of thought, so why even bother?
There is nothing wrong with being sceptical about something, but we either twig to it or we dont. It is much better to see logic as something tangable as opposed to a road to failure. No one has to do anything at all to their saw if they dont want to.
John
What are these people so afraid of? It's very hard to convince some people of a logical train of thought, so why even bother?
There is nothing wrong with being sceptical about something, but we either twig to it or we dont. It is much better to see logic as something tangable as opposed to a road to failure. No one has to do anything at all to their saw if they dont want to.
John
Ax-man, wrong question on service life. PP'ed saw cut 30 trees in one afternoon, Plain jane took all day+ to do same. It's not service life but it is work preformed over time. Plain jane may have to last longer to do the same amount of work and therefore looks like you got great service life but did you if your sthil trying to catch up to the work done by the PP'ed saw you replaced last year? Who runs out of omph first you or the saw? Even if you only go for the Madsen $80 once over your saw lasts longer. Power Ported is same amount of work in much less time than Plain jane. Maintainance would not be the same, PP did 8 trees in the time it took Plain jane to do 4, who's chain needs tickled first? If you measure service life in work done it's about the same but if you measure service life in the time it took to get the work done, Plain jane is back there in the sawdust somewhere trying to dig her way out. More often than not service life has to do with how you use and maintain the saws. If your PP346 will blow through a 24" piece and PJ346 will not handle the cuts without lots of efffort, so you go for a bigger saw, which is better service life? PP does the cuts while PJ sits and waits for the bigger saw to do it, which one gave better service? It all comes down to what are you going to ask the saw to do. Ask the PP to do more more often because it can save a trip to the truck for that bigger saw you had to get to help PJ get the same job done. What work are you going to ask of the saw not how long will it last. While PJ is resting while the bigger saw does the work and the PP can do it without help, which is better suited for what you do? How do you define service life? Will it do the job or do you buy a bigger saw to back up PJ? You will ask a power ported saw to do way more than plain jane and expect it to do the work without going for a bigger saw. If it can't you need a bigger PP'ed saw. 
Ax-man
Addicted to ArboristSite
geofore
Your post came in while I was typing some thing else.
Wow!! I asked a question, and sure got an answer from a perspective I hadn't thought of. I've never had PP ed saw so I'm in unfamiliar territory on this one, but I'm not unfamiliar with the concept of porting and the reasoning behind PPing a saw. It never occured to me to PP one till I stumbled into this site and saw so many comments on the subject.
To shorten the post I was working on here is the question?
How much of a power gain can be achived from porting a PJ stock saw???
Your post came in while I was typing some thing else.
Wow!! I asked a question, and sure got an answer from a perspective I hadn't thought of. I've never had PP ed saw so I'm in unfamiliar territory on this one, but I'm not unfamiliar with the concept of porting and the reasoning behind PPing a saw. It never occured to me to PP one till I stumbled into this site and saw so many comments on the subject.
To shorten the post I was working on here is the question?
How much of a power gain can be achived from porting a PJ stock saw???
ccicora
Addicted to ArboristSite
Weather you PP, KD, CC or who ever does it, I have yet not seen a person get that little smiling grin you can only get from one of these saws. The problem really is controling the madness after it starts....
Later,
Chris
P.S. to answer your question: It is very dependent on what saw you are talking about.... Size and desigh are key issues. either way we can get you to grin!
Later,
Chris
P.S. to answer your question: It is very dependent on what saw you are talking about.... Size and desigh are key issues. either way we can get you to grin!
ports
It depends on the saw and who ports it but then we have some great saw builders on this forum that can tell you more about that. Tell them what your going to be sawwing and ask for their recommendations. Some saws will gain 20% and others 45%+ it depends on make and model. One thing though, once you use a PPsaw there is no going back to plain jane, you are hooked on the cutting ease the power boost gives. No more picking up that heavy saw when the lighter PP will do. You can use that longer bar that would bog down PJ to a crawl or use the short one for the rooster tails it'll throw. I lost my train of thought there in the blizzard of sawdust. Remember one thing a PP saw has more power (faster) and you need to adjust your mind to react to that. These are not just toys, they are tools, lighter and faster than usual. Bear that in mind when you hand it to a novice to take it for a spin. Picture this, you hand the saw to your buddy and tell him to try it on a tree, he squeezes the trigger and goes to cut his notch. He pushes the saw like he'd push on his own saw, goes clear through the tree, his saw would have taken enough time to have a sandwich. Now he drops the saw and runs for cover because he doesn't know which way the tree will fall. Do you yell at him for dropping the saw or pat him on the back because he ran the right direction, the tree went the other way and no one was hurt. They are not like plain jane, they are not that forgiving of mistakes.
It depends on the saw and who ports it but then we have some great saw builders on this forum that can tell you more about that. Tell them what your going to be sawwing and ask for their recommendations. Some saws will gain 20% and others 45%+ it depends on make and model. One thing though, once you use a PPsaw there is no going back to plain jane, you are hooked on the cutting ease the power boost gives. No more picking up that heavy saw when the lighter PP will do. You can use that longer bar that would bog down PJ to a crawl or use the short one for the rooster tails it'll throw.
I lost my train of thought there in the blizzard of sawdust. Remember one thing a PP saw has more power (faster) and you need to adjust your mind to react to that. These are not just toys, they are tools, lighter and faster than usual. Bear that in mind when you hand it to a novice to take it for a spin. Picture this, you hand the saw to your buddy and tell him to try it on a tree, he squeezes the trigger and goes to cut his notch. He pushes the saw like he'd push on his own saw, goes clear through the tree, his saw would have taken enough time to have a sandwich. Now he drops the saw and runs for cover because he doesn't know which way the tree will fall. Do you yell at him for dropping the saw or pat him on the back because he ran the right direction, the tree went the other way and no one was hurt. They are not like plain jane, they are not that forgiving of mistakes.I would bet that a built saw will last longer for the following reasons-factory port chamfers many times stink. A good builder will chamfer the ports so the rings dont take such a beating. Se cond, a good builder will tighten the squish band up so it actually works. In stock form it does not. This results in a cooler head/piston and greatly reduces the chance of detonation. Deetonation is the number 1 killer of a two cycle motor wether it is caused by a lean air/fuel ratio or nasty fuel. Thirdly a good tuner will open up the muffler outlet which results in a cooler running piston and cylinder.
This topic has been bandied here before. You should search the forum, Ax-man, for something such as "safety factor" or "bearing life" (or maybe "bearing bosses"), particularly in posts by myself and Jokers.
Having done machine design work in the past, I can say without a doubt that one of the reasons the more powerful saws from the factories weigh more is because the crank journals, their bearings, and the crankcases which support them are beefier in order to accommodate the production and use of higher power over the long haul. Whether or not those areas will be causes of failure for users of beefed-up smaller saws is one of the things previously discussed. Some of the points (well) covered here by geofore and others are quite worthy of consideration, but I highly doubt whether any of these "ported" saws will be in service 15 or 20 years from now as could the plain-Jane versions given the same use day-to-day.
Don't think that I don't think it's fun to run a hopped-up piece of equipment, mind you; or even that I think it's ultimately a poor decision to so modify a chainsaw. But your question is a good one and worthy of all points of consideration. Are you contemplating achieving high production for a short time or maybe passing your saw on to your child when they grow up? Such factors should be considered.
Glen
Having done machine design work in the past, I can say without a doubt that one of the reasons the more powerful saws from the factories weigh more is because the crank journals, their bearings, and the crankcases which support them are beefier in order to accommodate the production and use of higher power over the long haul. Whether or not those areas will be causes of failure for users of beefed-up smaller saws is one of the things previously discussed. Some of the points (well) covered here by geofore and others are quite worthy of consideration, but I highly doubt whether any of these "ported" saws will be in service 15 or 20 years from now as could the plain-Jane versions given the same use day-to-day.
Don't think that I don't think it's fun to run a hopped-up piece of equipment, mind you; or even that I think it's ultimately a poor decision to so modify a chainsaw. But your question is a good one and worthy of all points of consideration. Are you contemplating achieving high production for a short time or maybe passing your saw on to your child when they grow up? Such factors should be considered.
Glen
